Standard Characters and Power Levels in The D&D Campaign

[Desdichado]

SHARK, as always your concepts are intriguing. However, your concepts are very tailored to your own campaign setting. I would almost prefer under-powered to over-powered as the baseline in my settings. I similarly don't really like the D&D magic items shopping list all that much, so giving rank and file troops a bunch of magic items and several levels of fighter wouldn't work for me.

S'mon:
IMC, as in the real world, the average soldier has never seen actual combat - and Warrior-1 is fine for reflecting this. For most of the history of the Roman Empire only a tiny proportion of legionaries ever saw battle. Shark's approach seems to be to replace the standard 1st-level character norm of D&D with a 4th level norm, and work up from there. All monsters - orcs, goblins etc - seem to be scaled up to match. To me this just seems to needlessly complicate matters. The only obvious benefit is that it greatly lowers the relative power of high level PCs - instead of the 18th level fighter wading through dozens of Wa-1 enemy soldiers, he's a match for only a few 7th level troopers. I can see many advantages to this for a Conan-type setting.

Yeah, but the same thing can be done by simply limiting the ceiling for character development. I don't particularly like high-level play (above 12-15th level or so) so I don't see the need to power up the grunts. It'd be a lot simpler to take the D&D assumptions as written and power down the top level guys (PCs, really...)

 

[bwgwl]

i don't think SHARK's legionnaire is out of line given what else he's shown us of his campaign. one of his hobgoblins would probably be an even match for one of these guys...

that being said, IMC i prefer an average battle to be between 1st-level warriors and 1-HD hobgoblins.

it's all a matter of taste.

i don't see 1st-level warriors as being all that incompetent. an average 1st-level warrior will have an attack bonus of +1 to +3 (+1 BAB, +1 for say, Str 12, and +1 for Weapon Focus), but his average opponent is only going to have an AC around 12 to 14. he's still going to be hitting fairly often.

he won't have many skill ranks, but remember, many skills can be used untrained. between taking 10 or 20, preparation, using the right tools, and other positive circumstance modifiers, he can succeed fairly often at most soldierly tasks even if he doesn't have many skill points.

i agree that if you follow SHARK's 5 premises to their logical conclusion, then magic will have a huge impact on a society and completely change everything.

i don't like gaming in those kinds of campaigns, though. even though it's not logical, i prefer fantasy worlds that mimic historical times. if i want a campaign where people have all the amenities of modern life, i'll play a modern or sci fi game. again, matter of taste.

i guess i look at the problem from the other way around: SHARK is basically saying, "Given the presence of magic, what impact will that have on the social order, and how will society change?"

i say, "Given an entrenched aristocracy and a medieval social order, how will that impact the presence of magic?"

in the campaign worlds i create, magic is almost exclusively the province of the upper classes. the lower classes have almost no access to magic, and the nobles only rarely use magic to benefit the peasants. so no magical healing for peasants, no magic to improve crops, no magic items for common soldiers.

it's just a different style of fantasy, that's all.

 

[el-remmen]

In Aquerra, even one of those Legionairres would be equivalent to a local hero of legend considered better than most men he will ever meet in his entire life.

As I see it, anyone with a non-NPC class level is someone VERY special - does that mean they are amazing or should be a "great hero"? No, because the world is a dangerous place and the odss are stacked against you, and even a first level fighter is most likely going to be killed by the dangers out there.

To get to seventh level would take a series of encounters, events and experiences that even the average soldier for hire will never have because he will be dead before he gets there.

 

[Henry]

I do agree with one thing - there is no case for assuming that anyone over the age of 20 is a first level ANYTHING. Life experience will give most people skill in their profession and other related fields over time. Can you imagine the grizzled old veteran guard of the city watch as being first or even 2nd level, even though he's maybe seen 5 actual combats in his life?

Think on this: we all face challenges in life. Challenge is a PART of life. Everyone, from pauper to millionaire, faces challenges that they must overcome - it is a mistake to think that just because someone never wondered where their next meal is coming from, that they never faced a challenge that tested them and made them better people.

We know from the D&D experience system, that experience is given not for winning fights; experience is given for overcoming challenges. What's the only way to have never been challnged?

Answer: To have never lived.

Therefore, anyone who is over the age of, say, 18 to 20 should definitely be a 2nd or higher level character, whether PC or NPC. It is unrealistic to me to say that Farmer Brown, age 50, is a level 1 Commoner. He has survived plenty of hard times, overcome challenges to his survival just by living - and still he lives on.

Some characters, such as street urchins or 13-year-old conscripts, are possibly much higher level at age 18 than one would think. That 18-year-old who has wielded a weapon since age 13 might be one heck of a warrior - but he has no social skills and is too immature for bluffing or diplomacy whatsoever. That part is all up to roleplaying. But you CAN'T say that he hasn't lived.

If a 30-year-old always had stuff handed to him from age 5, and has never had to lift a finger to get what he wanted, then you might make a case for a 1st level commoner there. (Prestige class: "waste of space.") But a battlefield full of soldiers with an ounce of training would hardly be first level. Heck, "boot camp" would give you a level just for surviving it!

 

[el-remmen]

SOrry, Henry - to me "boot camp" is what makes you First Level.

 

[Errant]

Put me down as one more DM who thinks 1st level anythings are appropriate for "average" NPCs. IMC these guys are teenagers/young adults just starting out in the world & learning their trades, green recruits or lowly apprentices. By 2nd level you're trained, 3rd you're experience, 4th you're a veteran, 5th & above you've becoming a leader among your peers & starting to earn renown...

Seems to me the problem is that there is no officially recognised system or standard for characters to gain experience from non-life threatening pursuits. How fast do you gain experience for daily arms drills, or farming, or logging, etc, etc?

 

[willpax]

I use a simple calculation in my campaign for general experience levels.

On average, the basic challenges involved in everyday life work up to about one experience point per day (on average).

Take your 16-year old apprentice, and in about three years she or he is second level.

If this person does not seek out significantly greater challenges (I think the people who seek to constantly test themselves to the limits of their abilities are somewhat rare), then the rate will drop (same challenge at 2nd level=half the experience; also, you have to get twice as much experience). That means this person will be in her or his late 20s when he or she reaches third level.

Fourth level will come in the mid to late 40s (I assume that by this point the person is experienced enough to take on slightly more challenging work). Most people will never advance to 5th level (except in demihuman societies where longer lifespans are the norm).

Most of the workers in a given town will be second level, with "managers" and experienced hands at third or fourth level. That means that your town guard will be a L2 warrior, while the sherriff might be a L3/L1 warrior/rogue. I have found that this makes levels matter while keeping the town guards meaningful at lower levels.

 

[Umbran]

We know from the D&D experience system, that experience is given not for winning fights; experience is given for overcoming challenges. What's the only way to have never been challnged?

Answer: To have never lived.

Well, yes and no.

In D&D, the challenges are generally epic ones. Yes, one learns a little bit from the mundane challenges of everyday life, but not a lot. You don't get many XP for finagling your boss to give you a 2 copper piece raise, or settling your differences with your mom, or baking a really grand cake. Learning based off the normal things that happen to normal people gets you... a normal person. While their personality and outlook on life may be interesting, the actual ability of John Q Public just aren't impressive.

The average NPC has, as you put it, "not lived" in the same sense a PC has. The average NPC has never been under the pressure of needing to act when their life was in danger. They've never really stretched the limits of what they are. By comparison to the PC, their lives have been dull, even empty. So, yes, they are represented by 1st level characters.

 

[mmadsen]

Seems to me the problem is that there is no officially recognised system or standard for characters to gain experience from non-life threatening pursuits. How fast do you gain experience for daily arms drills, or farming, or logging, etc, etc?

That and people are justifiably loth to give extra levels to normal folks for normal jobs since levels in D&D, even NPC levels, mean lots of extra Hit Points (and a small increase in BAB and Saves).

Should your manager at work really have twice as many Hit Points as his underlings? Should you really have twice as many Hit Points when you get promoted?

 

[Voadam]

MMM MMM Good

Field-Pack of Wonder: The strange pouch is fashioned of some rugged, sponge-like substance that forms a small shoulder pouch, with a folding cover-flap and silver buckles. The pouch is enchanted to endure elements, (cold), and is moisture resistant, keeping all of the interior of the pouch dry and free of moisture. The owner of the Field-Pack of Wonder can reach within the pouch and pull forth a gallon waterskin full of cold, fresh water, or of sugared hot tea, up two 2/day. In addition, the owner can reach in and discover that the pouch has provided a nutritious meal for one person, 3/day. Each meal of field rations is fully nutritious, and composed of something potentially different each time a meal is brought from the pouch. Besides the main course, the meal includes thick, chewy crackers that have a slightly salty flavour, as well as a small pouch of cheese spread. The meal has at best, a slightly disturbing flavour and odor, but remains completely safe and nutritious to eat. Instructions in small print on the outside of the strange pouches explain that the meal can be enjoyed hot or cold.

Meal: (Roll 1D20 each time a meal is selected, to determine what kind of meal appears.)

(01-05)—Ham: This selection is a strange brick of ham. The wrapper says ham, and it does have a dull pink coloration. You believe that it’s ham…
(06-10)—Chicken and Noodles: There is a small pouch that says chicken and noodles on it. The brick of chicken resembles the similar brick of ham. Still, the colour is different, sort of a pale tan coloration. It smells like chicken. The wrapper even says chicken…The noodles are broad and thick, with a chewy texture. They have a dark yellow coloration, and tend to be a bit gooey.
(11-15)—Beef Stew: This small pouch has seemingly the same noodles in it as from the Chicken and Noodles selection. In addition, squares of bright orange carrots can be seen swimming in the stew, with cubes of dark, peppery beef. The meat is tough and leathery, and the dark brown gravy has a distinct odor to it.
(16-20)—BBQed Beef: This pouch has a dark reddish-brown sauce, which is thick and has chunks of pepper, onion, mushrooms, and beef swimming about in it. The meat is tough, and the sauce is very peppery. The sauce is overwhelming in spice.

Caster Level: 5th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, endure elements, create food and water, enlarge; Market Price: 1,200 GP. Weight: 1 lb.

Oh the memories of MREs.

Shark, you forgot the hot chocolate and desert bars.