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Star Wars IX: The Rise of Skywalker Trailer

Zardnaar

Explorer
I like the idea of something else taking over. RotJ was neat, and them returning was cool when they were this mythical unknown. But the prequels really showed the flaws of the Jedi Order. Their failures led to the rise of the empire and the deaths of untold trillions.

Luke just going out and reforming the Jedi feels like repeating a mistake. Like the son of Mordred refounding the Knights of the Round Table.

I would actually be impressed by Abrams if he goes the route of a new order of Force Users that breaks the cycle of the Sith and Jedi. That changes the dynamic of the galaxy. That would be hella new and invigorating for the franchise, as even the EU was bound to the idea of Sith vs Jedi, which was made all the more pointless as the struggle had lasted 100,000 years.
When the EU ended it was heavily playing up the Sith and the Jedi balancing each other out. And they did add new force orders like the Imperial Knights. Skywalkers as a force tradition the names a bit silly.

The Sith were not around for 100 000 years maybe the species but the Sith as galcticc bad guys was more 5000 years. They over did the Jedi/Sith thing a bit to much but old republic era was interesting and the Sith/Jedi take on the Legacy of the Force comics was also well done IMHO with Cade Skywalker. Lukes Jedi also do actually save the galaxy as well so they succeed.

Lukes NJO was also a lot less dogmatic than the movies, they could go off and marry, found new force traditions etc. And some of them had a great visual.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Imperial_Knight

I don't think they will go with eliminating the Jedi though, they might want to do a episode X-XII one day or set movies after IX. Its also risky if they do a Knights of the Old epublic era trilogy (it has been discussed) and potential audiences might not care about it if they know the Jedi ultimately go away. Its a very big Star Wars trope (the biggest?), I wouldn't go there if I was in charge of Disney lol. You would almost have to wonder if they are deliberately trying to chase their fans away at that point. Would bet money on that reaction being worse than the reaction to TLJ.
 
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Jester David

Villager
When the EU ended it was heavily playing up the Sith and the Jedi balancing each other out. And they did add new force orders like the Imperial Knights.
I'll take your word for it...

Skywalkers as a force tradition the names a bit silly.
No sillier than "Jedi".
It just feels silly because it's unfamiliar.

The Sith were not around for 100 000 years maybe the species but the Sith as galcticc bad guys was more 5000 years. They over did the Jedi/Sith thing a bit to much but old republic era was interesting and the Sith/Jedi take on the Legacy of the Force comics was also well done IMHO with Cade Skywalker. Lukes Jedi also do actually save the galaxy as well so they succeed.
I was exaggerating with the "100,000 years" line. But it was 25,000 years. With thousands of years of warfare throughout the first ten millennium of the Republic's lifetime. It's a ridiculously long period of constant battle.

Lukes NJO was also a lot less dogmatic than the movies, they could go off and marry, found new force traditions etc. And some of them had a great visual.
I believe a lot of that also pre-dated the dogma of the prequels. So it was less that they were "more flexible than the Jedi" and more that the restrictions hadn't been invented yet. And once they had, they retconned it to Luke being more relaxed.

I don't think they will go with eliminating the Jedi though, they might want to do a episode X-XII one day or set movies after IX.
I think having an "order of Skywalkers" would open things up for stories just as much as restarting the Jedi Order.

And it doesn't sound like they're doing a Episode X+ anytime soon. Really, the movies haven't been doing well, what with China not giving an eff. They might see the response to Rian Johnson's next trilogy and decide if they want to keep annual movies or just focus on television.

Its also risky if they do a Knights of the Old epublic era trilogy (it has been discussed) and potential audiences might not care about it if they know the Jedi ultimately go away.
I don't see how that would matter.
People know the Knights of the Round Table all die, and they still watch Camelolt movies.

Its a very big Star Wars trope (the biggest?), I wouldn't go there if I was in charge of Disney lol. You would almost have to wonder if they are deliberately trying to chase their fans away at that point.
I'd argue the trope of rebels fighting the empire is much bigger. You can have movies without the Jedi.
Really, of the franchise is to survive and grow it NEEDs to branch out away from the Jedi and the Force and be able to tell stories of the Black Sun and Mandalorians and junk traders.

Would bet money on that reaction being worse than the reaction to TLJ.
Yeah... only like 10% of the audience hated TLJ. Most people liked it. It's a small vocal minority that hated it and is particularly loud online. And just as many people LOVED it and called it one of the best ones. With the vast, vast majority falling solidly in the middle.

The TLJ was a huge success for Lucas Films and Star Wars and in no way divided the audience remotely as much as comments online would lead you to believe.
 

Zardnaar

Explorer
Republic lasted 25000 years, the Jedi were shorter than that

They just focused the stories on war set over thousands of years. Earth's history had a lot more wars in a timeframe 1/10th of the Republic.

They can easily tell a Star Wars story without the Jedi don't need to kill them off to do it. The old EU had plenty of non Jedi stories covering everything you mentioned. For Mandalore ;). They even had female Mandalorians OMG!!!!

They also passed the torch to Jaina Solo with Ben Skywalker in training. She even trained with the Mandalorians to face her brother who fell to the darkside. He inherited the Skywalker whine so killing him off was good lol. Luke and could were still around but they were definitely transitioning in to the next generation.
 
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pukunui

Adventurer
In an attempt to steer the conversation back to the teaser, am I the only one who feels like that guy getting taken down by Kylo Ren in the red-tinged forest is one of the other Knights of Ren? The outfit and weapon remind me of the guys seen standing in the rain with Kylo in Rey’s Force vision in TFA.
 

doctorbadwolf

Explorer
In an attempt to steer the conversation back to the teaser, am I the only one who feels like that guy getting taken down by Kylo Ren in the red-tinged forest is one of the other Knights of Ren? The outfit and weapon remind me of the guys seen standing in the rain with Kylo in Rey’s Force vision in TFA.
Seriously there is a whole other thread for that argument.

And yeah, rewatching it, I think you’re right.
 

MarkB

Adventurer
In an attempt to steer the conversation back to the teaser, am I the only one who feels like that guy getting taken down by Kylo Ren in the red-tinged forest is one of the other Knights of Ren? The outfit and weapon remind me of the guys seen standing in the rain with Kylo in Rey’s Force vision in TFA.
Perhaps. Alternatively, if Palpatine really is back, it could be a Sith, or one of their minions.
 
I like the idea of something else taking over. RotJ was neat, and them returning was cool when they were this mythical unknown. But the prequels really showed the flaws of the Jedi Order. Their failures led to the rise of the empire and the deaths of untold trillions.

Luke just going out and reforming the Jedi feels like repeating a mistake. Like the son of Mordred refounding the Knights of the Round Table.

I would actually be impressed by Abrams if he goes the route of a new order of Force Users that breaks the cycle of the Sith and Jedi. That changes the dynamic of the galaxy. That would be hella new and invigorating for the franchise, as even the EU was bound to the idea of Sith vs Jedi, which was made all the more pointless as the struggle had lasted 100,000 years.
Yes, I very much agree with this and like the idea of a more Taoistic, non-dualistic Force tradition. Of course as with the Hegelian dialectic, even if the Skywalkers were a synthesis and transcendence of the duality of Jedi and Sith, a new antithesis would form in contrast to it as a thesis, so we'd be back to "good" Skywalkers vs. "bad" ???
 

doctorbadwolf

Explorer
Yes, I very much agree with this and like the idea of a more Taoistic, non-dualistic Force tradition. Of course as with the Hegelian dialectic, even if the Skywalkers were a synthesis and transcendence of the duality of Jedi and Sith, a new antithesis would form in contrast to it as a thesis, so we'd be back to "good" Skywalkers vs. "bad" ???
I’d much rather continue to have a franchise where there is genuine Good, genuine Evil, and folks in between.

In more DnD terms; the Dark Side is the corruption represented by aberrations, and the Force is Nature/The Will of Nature. Nature is unbalanced as long as beholders and aboleths exist. There is no balance between Nature and Aberrations.

In the same way, I prefer Star Wars to leave the “everything is grey” stuff to nearly every other franchise out there, and keep doing what makes it special.
 
I am not suggesting that SW does away with Light vs. Dark, but that it reimagines it as not so dualistic, not so absolute. Furthermore, what is "light" can change, and with it what is "dark" in relation to it. I'm not talking about extreme relativism, but some degree of relativism, which is an intrinsic aspect of the Taoist philosophy that partially inspired Lucas's idea of the Force.

Taoist philosophy would likely hold that "aberrations" are just extreme variations of Nature, and ultimately "natural" expressions of it. "Evil," in this sense, isn't as much what is unnatural, but what is in resistance to the flow of Nature. It is egotism - fighting against the flow (Force). In that sense it could be argued that the Jedi fall short of a "true" Taoist philosophy. The are more "in the flow" than the Sith, but still fall short. So we could imagine a Skywalker order that recognizes the necessity of both Light and Dark. If I remember correctly, we get glimmers of this from Yoda and Luke.
 

doctorbadwolf

Explorer
I am not suggesting that SW does away with Light vs. Dark, but that it reimagines it as not so dualistic, not so absolute. Furthermore, what is "light" can change, and with it what is "dark" in relation to it. I'm not talking about extreme relativism, but some degree of relativism, which is an intrinsic aspect of the Taoist philosophy that partially inspired Lucas's idea of the Force.

Taoist philosophy would likely hold that "aberrations" are just extreme variations of Nature, and ultimately "natural" expressions of it. "Evil," in this sense, isn't as much what is unnatural, but what is in resistance to the flow of Nature. It is egotism - fighting against the flow (Force). In that sense it could be argued that the Jedi fall short of a "true" Taoist philosophy. The are more "in the flow" than the Sith, but still fall short. So we could imagine a Skywalker order that recognizes the necessity of both Light and Dark. If I remember correctly, we get glimmers of this from Yoda and Luke.
Right, that’s precisely what I don’t want in Star Wars.
 

GreyLord

Adventurer
I'm still thinking (said this before I think) Palpatine is dead. It's the holocron (I believe it was hinted at previously) which has some sort of connection to Palpatine (or perhaps remnants like a ghost) and it is this holocron which initially started the corruption of Kylo Ren in the first place.

It appears though, that Kylo and Rey may team up in this one from the appearances of the teaser.

If so, it wouldn't surprise me if Kylo faces of with some of the Knights of Ren or something to that effect.

I DO hope the spoilers about them simply being on a bro quest to broadcast a transmission of Luke Skywalker isn't really what the entire plot of the movie revolves around though.

I'd think with the hints it would be more about dealing with the Knights of Ren (whom we haven't really seen up to now, but they have to be somewhere and I'd imagine they would have been part of the first order as well...if Kylo tried to take charge I imagine they'd have a thing or two to say about that eventually) and the First Order with them trying to lead instead of Kylo.

No idea on my part, but I'm that theory about a broadcast sounds more like some fanmade theory than real (or at least I hope it's fan made up rather than actual).
 

MarkB

Adventurer
I seem to recall that George Lucas has mentioned in interviews that he never saw the Force as being a balance between light and dark - the""light side" of the Force was never mentioned in either the original trilogy or the prequels.

Instead, there was "the Force" and "the dark side of the Force". When the prophecy of the Chosen One talks about bringing balance to the Force, it doesn't mean a balance between light and dark - it means removing the unbalancing influence of the Dark Side to leave only the Force.
 

pukunui

Adventurer
[MENTION=40176]MarkB[/MENTION]: Yes, George likened the dark side to a cancer and balance meant getting rid of it, not making it even with the “light side”. That was an EU concept which, unfortunately, seems to have become the official stance under Disney. The Rebels cartoon hinted at that a number of times. And in the new movies, we got Leia in TFA telling Han she could sense that there was still “light” in their son rather than “good”. That irked me. And then Luke in TLJ tells Rey that the Force was comprised of both light and dark, and Snoke talks about how the light side has raised a champion (Rey) to counter his dark side champion (Kylo). Sigh ...
 
I seem to recall that George Lucas has mentioned in interviews that he never saw the Force as being a balance between light and dark - the""light side" of the Force was never mentioned in either the original trilogy or the prequels.

Instead, there was "the Force" and "the dark side of the Force". When the prophecy of the Chosen One talks about bringing balance to the Force, it doesn't mean a balance between light and dark - it means removing the unbalancing influence of the Dark Side to leave only the Force.
On one hand that could be viewed as a matter of semantics. On the other, I think Lucas--or your take of him--is pointing to a crucial subtlety that aligns with Taoist philosophy. The Force (or Tao) isn't inherently "good" or "evil". It just is. "Balance" isn't as much a stasis between good and evil as it is a free flow, whereas the "Dark Side" would be the attempt to control it, to force it...yes, to force the Force ;)

Anyhow, maybe now's a good time to insert some Merlin wisdom:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxXmoWkQhBI
 
[MENTION=40176]MarkB[/MENTION]: Yes, George likened the dark side to a cancer and balance meant getting rid of it, not making it even with the “light side”. That was an EU concept which, unfortunately, seems to have become the official stance under Disney. The Rebels cartoon hinted at that a number of times. And in the new movies, we got Leia in TFA telling Han she could sense that there was still “light” in their son rather than “good”. That irked me. And then Luke in TLJ tells Rey that the Force was comprised of both light and dark, and Snoke talks about how the light side has raised a champion (Rey) to counter his dark side champion (Kylo). Sigh ...
Here's a thought. Maybe part of the deception of the Sith is that there needs to be "dark vs light", evil vs good. It is to further the duality, to push everyone into this or that side (Sort of like the current cultural-political landscape!)

On the other hand, I would think it a rather naive view to hope that a Force--and universe--without the Dark Side would ever be fully possible, at least in a permanent way. Balance might be restored for a time, but will inevitably go out of whack again. The Indian yuga cycles illustrates this quite well and it is echoed through many mythologies and is, I think, intrinsic to the human condition on Earth, at least from a mythological perspective. There's a "Golden Age" but an inevitable Fall, and then through long toil--the Hero's Journey--we rise up again and create a new Golden Age...which can only ever be impermanent and will lead to another Fall, etc.

Its sort of like the delight a child takes in doing something dangerous and scary, like a rollercoaster. When the ordeal is over there's a brief pause, which the adult parent experiences as a kind of micro-Golden Age, and then child says "Let's do it again!"
 

GreyLord

Adventurer
The way that the sequel trilogy takes it, I think is that the idea is that there is balance between force users.

Annakin, in that way, really did finally bring balance to the force, as long as you don't look at all the extraneous material found in anything but the movies themselves.

When he did the Jedi Purge and it was Him and the Emperor on the Dark Side and Yoda and Obi-Wan on the light side. When Luke first comes to knowledge of the Force, Obi-Wan dies.

For that while, the Force is balanced between light and dark in the new ST way of seeing things.

It is explained in TLJ thus, that when one side rises, the other raises someone else to match it. Thus, the idea probably is that Snoke came into being because Luke was there, and since the Force had finally been balanced, Luke being Lightside needed a Dark Side user to balance it out. Thus, Kylo's balance would be Rey.

The idea Luke expressed in TLJ would be then, that as long as there are those on the one side of the Force, now that it is balanced, there will always be those on the other side. His idea is that if the Jedi were to end, so would the Dark side force users.

That probably doesn't work really with what Lucas envisioned or his other material (as seen in the Clone wars and definitely what is seen in Rebels, but works with the movie continuity and seems to be what Snoke explains in TLJ). Lucas (who has changed his mind several times as he said one thing in the past and then something different later on in various interviews) seems to have originally based the Force off a similar idea as Buddhism's relationship with Zen. It is the idea of balance within the individual, with unbalance being excessively giving into emotion or one side of cravings or other things. Thus, the idea that the force itself is balanced, but the Dark side is an unbalanced force. To balance it would be to do away with the Dark side (as Vader eventually did).

BUT, under Disney I think their interpretation is more akin to the idea of balance being between the light and the dark. Each needing the other in order to exist. It's more of a Yin/Yang than a middle road type idea. Thus, if only one side has a Force user, then the force will make another arise on the other side now that it is balanced.

I think that's how TLJ explains it and that's sort of the explanation also of how Snoke actually exists now.
 
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pukunui

Adventurer
[MENTION=4348]GreyLord[/MENTION]: Following that line of thinking, since Kylo killed Snoke, Luke had to sacrifice himself to maintain the balance?
 

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