Star Wars Saga Edition?

[Felon]

If I had a player abusing this, I'd *always* have something nasty coming for them. Eventually they could talk to a master, who would explain that their fear was drawing conflict to them, rather than just seeing if it was there.

If you look hard enough for a problem, you're going to find one.

I didn't have to look hard for the problem, it was right out in the open. You had to look away to pretent it isn't there.

But seriously, how do you consider searching your feelings at every opportunity to be a case of player abuse? The book allows him to take 10 and get a 15. There is no limit on uses per day. This is a tool the game gave him to use. How is he in the wrong for using it? Is a character in the wrong for using Diplomacy or Pilot skill to avoid trouble more than X number of times per day? Blame the game, not the player.

 

[Felon]

I think the book handles it adequately. Light side doesn't use force in every instance. Dark side does. So if the players would constantly searched their feelings like paranoid wimps, it would lead them down the path to dark side.

The book doesn't handle it; you're making an extrapolation and presenting it as the only possible conclusion. Unless I missed a section that provides a quota on how many times a force-user can use the force to sense his surroundings before he's suddenly perverting it into something evil, then you're basically just taking a vague reference and proffering it as a hard-coded rule to handle the issue. It isn't.

"Hmm, say player, only an evil force-user would keep searching his feelings like that. You know all those times jedis got surprised the movies? That was them being real men and confidently walking into a steely fist because they know they've exceeded their personal feeling-searching quota for the week."

Yep, that is air-tight!

Being able to automatically gain this little insight every time you bother to spend a free round on it (effectively free outside combat, in other words: in the majority of expected uses) flies directly in the face of the dramatic "I've got a bad feeling" moments in the movies and turns it into a boring assumption.

Exactly. To me, that's so obvious that I don't get how it falls under the category of "well, if you look hard enough to find a problem..."

 

[Imaro]

I'm scrambling over your post to see what you found so incredibly silly, and it seems that you don't actually specify anything, and your counter-point has no relation to what I said (which was not about the force, but rather about options for non-force users)..

Exactly what type of options are you talking about? It seems your more hung up on equipment than actual options...because these are covered by feats and (class specific) talents. Unless it really is that you just want more equipment.

If "feeling like Star Wars" is just being a cheap imitation of the movies, then IMO that's a pretty sad excuse for an RPG...and a silly one..

Everyone has their own thoughts...however, why should I want your "interpretation" of Star Wars over what's "official" unless you put a disclaimer on the front or we agree totally on what else constitutes Star Wars. Give me whats "official" and then let me decide what I do or don't want.

I've already asked the question in my previous post, and while I got a few snide snipes, nobody actually stepped up and rose to the occasions. So I'll ask it again: what does "play the game like Star Wars" mean then? Does "play the game like Star Wars" mean you're just imitiating the same party structure that was in the movies? Only using weapons seen in the movies? Only fighting rancors and wampas or some other monster with a Lucas trademark symbol by its name? Only using the same force powers, fighting the same ships, fighting the same menagrie, and visiting the same locations seen in the movies? Because limiting yourself to recreating scenes from the movie is a pretty lame excuse for an RPG.

What rule in the book forces you to imitate the party structure of the movies? As far as making up stuff, that isn't traditionally Star Wars, and sticking it in the core book... I see that as a definite no. You're going to alienate your fan base, or divide them. This isn't a good idea if the core is suppose to be accessible to beginners and a base rules set for the entire Star Wars universe. Besides that's what sourcebooks are for, then you decide what else does or doesn't get added to the baseline. A simple example are the Yuuzahn Vong and their bio-tech...I've seen more people argue about this being canon or not canon, as well as being "core" in the game than a little bit.

Is it impossible to take the game in a any kind of new direction without making it a "generic space" game? Personally, I don't see why the "Star Wars" feel is suddenly lost if you try to innovate.

There are certain tropes that someone who watches the Star Wars movies or reads the books and comics, or even plays the video games will expect. By keeping these tropes it makes it an easier game to access...when I say death star or star destroyer or x-wing or jedi or Wompa...they already know what it is. If you want to take the game in new directions that's great...but expecting the game's designers to do this(especially with the licensing clauses they have with Lucas) is absurd. It's the STAR WARS RPG.

 

[gribble]

I've read several people say its got tons of errata and some mechanical issues. Any truth to that?

Yes and no. Being a new system (like true 20, it's certainly based on D&D/d20, but changed so much that it is, in essence, a new system) I won't deny that there are some mechanics that do have issues (most of these have since been errataed though - and no, there isn't "tons" of errata - about a page of substantive errata). But from what I can see, the people saying there are widespread mechanical issues are generally familiar with the RCR or D&D, and they're making unsubstantiated claims that things are broken based on their experience with those systems.

Take 2 weapon fighting for instance. A lot of people are complaining because withdraw is now a move action, so every round an opponent can just move away from a 2WF specialist, and he'll never get a full round of attacks off. But that assumes that (like D&D) you're fighting in some featureless 20x20 room, or 10ft wide corridor. Look at the movies/comics/games - when do they ever do that? When do you see characters just standing there (as they do in D&D) and wailing on each other? Pretty much never - the key to 2WF in Saga is backing someone into a corner, or tripping them off their feet, or otherwise putting them in a position where they can't just withdraw without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Someone asked how Saga has that "Star Wars" feel. It's not about emulating scenes directly from the movies (although the developers have done a pretty good job over on the WotC forums showing that it does that pretty effectively as well), it's about creating new scenes and stories that "feel" like a Star Wars movie. The fights are interesting, with lots of maneuvering, diving for cover, etc. The abilites and powers feel consistent with what the characters were able to do in the movies. E.g.: in RCR stunning was the most effective tactic you could use, but stunning was only ever used once that I can recall in the Movies. The upshot was that every man and his dog was using stun attacks in the game, when they hardly ever did in the movies - i.e.: it didn't feel a lot like SW. Saga doesn't have this problem - stun has it's place (i.e.: when you want to take someone alive) - but it's no more effective than just shooting to kill. There are lots of little things like that, like how Force powers work, the way skills work, etc. that mean that the mechanics do a great job of creating scenes that feel like they could have happened in the movies/comics/books/games.
Thats the Star Wars feel.

 

[Numion]

The book doesn't handle it; you're making an extrapolation and presenting it as the only possible conclusion. Unless I missed a section that provides a quota on how many times a force-user can use the force to sense his surroundings before he's suddenly perverting it into something evil, then you're basically just taking a vague reference and proffering it as a hard-coded rule to handle the issue. It isn't.

You're talking about a hard coded rule; I'm not. I don't think one is needed, because I don't think people would use it before every trip to the john. Granted, some people have problems with a Paladins detect evil used like a radar. Possible within rules, but no player of mine has used it like that.

SAGA book handles it better than D&D; at least they mention that only a dark side user would use force for everything.

Besides, by the book a jedi could use move light object take out the trash, move drinks from the bar to his table, flush the john, etc.. with no limitation. Hell, anakin and obie would've probably communicated by telepathy by taking 10 all the time. Do you have any problem with that?

"Hmm, say player, only an evil force-user would keep searching his feelings like that. You know all those times jedis got surprised the movies? That was them being real men and just letting unfortunate things happen because they know they've exceeded their personal feeling-searching quota for the week."

Yep, that is air-tight!

Wow, you pegged my GMing style just like that! Impressive

Now, you have problem with that style, but you would have no problem saying the above quote to players who've reached some hardcoded SAGA rules quota? "Only 3 searchings of feelings per day! Coruscant 24 hour day, that is! That's how they got pwned"

 

[Imaro]

The book doesn't handle it; you're making an extrapolation and presenting it as the only possible conclusion. Unless I missed a section that provides a quota on how many times a force-user can use the force to sense his surroundings before he's suddenly perverting it into something evil, then you're basically just taking a vague reference and proffering it as a hard-coded rule to handle the issue. It isn't.

"Hmm, say player, only an evil force-user would keep searching his feelings like that. You know all those times jedis got surprised the movies? That was them being real men and confidently walking into a steely fist because they know they've exceeded their personal feeling-searching quota for the week."

Yep, that is air-tight!


Exactly. To me, that's so obvious that I don't get how it falls under the category of "well, if you look hard enough to find a problem..."

The answer to this is simple...most of the time it's not going to tell him anything. How often is an action a definite? It is just like in the movies, it's only going to be effective if the result of his "particular" action will or will not result in something unfavorable happening as a specific result of his "particular" action within the next 10 min. In a game how often is a definite the case? So the player can roll(just like any skill) to see if it will work, but (just like any skill) it only benefits him in very particular situations...otherwise it's a big neutral nothing. In fact even the action has to be specific, since it must be based on the "particular" action.

The way I see this power is more along the lines of "Jedi wisdom" in those instances where players aren't sure what they're suppose to do and it will have serious consequences dependant on choice.

 

[Klaus]

I think the book handles it adequately. Light side doesn't use force in every instance. Dark side does. So if the players would constantly searched their feelings like paranoid wimps, it would lead them down the path to dark side.

Enter: Darth Emo!

 

[LostSoul]

Personally, I'm not so crazy about a jedi spamming the "search your feelings" bit with his Use the Force skill to know whether or not his every action will have favorable or unfavorable consequences, or using "sense your surroundings" to pop enemies out of hiding constantly.

This sounds like it would be pretty cool in the game, I think.

Basically, when the player asks, he knows. That's cool. Sometimes he'll go all ninja-mode and be using these skills every other round. That's a really cool visual - the jedi moving slowly, stealthily, able to use the force to slip past guards and turn off the tractor beam.

Since you need to specify a particular action, he can't always "have it up" because he'd have to declare what action he's searching his feelings about every time he uses the skill. Declaring general actions would be okay, though, but I can't think of any except for moving ("I search my feelings every 5 minutes to see if we'll have trouble on our current path").

Maybe you're looking at it differently? How do you see it playing out in the game?

 

[Felon]

Exactly what type of options are you talking about? It seems your more hung up on equipment than actual options...because these are covered by feats and (class specific) talents. Unless it really is that you just want more equipment.

As I've said, weapons and gadgets are the equivalent of your sci-fi magic items and spells; they're both the carrots you seek to acquire during the course of the game (magic items), and they're the modular components that you can customize and swap out easily (spells).

As I said, don't get me wrong (not that it really helped; people got me wrong despite telling them otherwise), I like the basic infrastructure of SWSE. Class features are a starting point for characters, so for the sake of simplicity they need to be pretty basic, finite, and none too modular. Feats are more expansive, and they're a good area for expanding options. In D&D, feats branched off into new areas like tactical, weapon style, and reserve feats. I'd like to similar arrangements here that avoid the limitations players can experience with D20 Modern (which I alread went into).

What rule in the book forces you to imitate the party structure of the movies? As far as making up stuff, that isn't traditionally Star Wars, and sticking it in the core book... I see that as a definite no. You're going to alienate your fan base, or divide them.

If you provide the tools too create a compelling, fun game, people will play it. They might debate continuity, but they'll play.

There are certain tropes that someone who watches the Star Wars movies or reads the books and comics, or even plays the video games will expect. By keeping these tropes it makes it an easier game to access...when I say death star or star destroyer or x-wing or jedi or Wompa...they already know what it is. If you want to take the game in new directions that's great...but expecting the game's designers to do this(especially with the licensing clauses they have with Lucas) is absurd. It's the STAR WARS RPG.

The solution is pretty simple: blend the familiar tropes in with new material. You've still got your x-wings and wompas, but now your soldier PC might have some cool weapon for taking out the opposition.

 

[Nightchilde-2]

Here's how I feel about Star Wars Saga Edition.

D&D Developer: "How would you change D&D for 4e?"
Me: (holds up a copy of Star Wars Saga Edition) "See this? Do this to D&D. For it is made of win and good and I will play both rather than forsaking D&D for Star Wars."