Star Wars Saga Edition?

[Felon]

I'm by no means expert on the book; just bought it yesterday. But I do agree with you here. I was a bit disappointed that it was missing detailed equipment rules for Boba Fett type character - I mean the basics were there, but I was expecting as similar treatment for that type of stuff as there was for force powers. Instead the equipment chapter was kinda afterthought. If I run it, I'd like to see something else than 4 padawans in the group. I guess it's good point to expand from, since there seemed to be enough PC options to make non-Jedis viable.

Right, they kinda missed the boat there, so I hope they revisit it again at some point. Obviously, the SW license provides a great starting point for drawing players into a sci-fi game, but it needs to be a solid game in its own right. That means providing a multitude of options rather than stripping them down due to an mperative to be steadfastly faithful to the source material. It's a far better thing to be able to have Star Wars adventures with new options than to be stuck just doing faithful imitations.

Equipment in the first two versions of SWd20 got exact same level of treatment as they got in Saga Edition, a quick descriptive blurb and a chart listing cost and effects for weapons and armor. It wasn't until Arms&Equipment Guide for RCR that any sort of rules for modifiying equipment appearted.

Your goal here seems to be to defend SWSE in relation to its standing with other versions. But that's not what Numion and I were talking about.

This is one of those things where GM's gotta remind themselves that players tend to be a self-absorbed lot; the majority of what they care about in any given RPG is going to be their character, not the setting. That's why I feel safe in saying a great deal of them won't make the distinction of whether the game is focusing on the movies or the EU (whatever "focusing on" means besides "leaving other stuff out"). What they'll focus on is whether it's a solid game in its own right. For a lot of gamers, that means offering more options than just being a jedi, an ace pilot, a princess, or a protocol droid (the latter three of whom aren't even close to being in the same league with the jedi in a fight).

The idea of limiting options in order to be "true to the movies" is a move I'm dubious about. A guy tinkering with a soldier build and looking for some cool weapon to identify his character with probably doesn't have his disappointment asuaged by being told "sorry, they didn't focus much on non-jedi warriors or non-jedi weapons in the movies". In fact, not only might he want to play a Fett-like character, but rather he might want to identify his bounty hunter in a way that is actually unique from Boba Fett. If there are rules for an exotic weapon that isn't derivative of something we've seen in the movies, is that a crime of "unfaithfulness" to the movies? Does being true to the movies amount to derivative characters, derivative feats, derivative weapons, and so forth?

 

[Gez]

For a lot of gamers, that means offering more options than just being a jedi, an ace pilot, a princess, or a protocol droid (the latter three who aren't even close to being in the same league with the jedi in a fight).

Yeah, but that's kinda a problem with the setting. I'm contemplating joining a SW game, and here I am asking myself: "what else than a pilot or a Jedi can be played in SW?"

Beside, I've always liked the computer games (especially the X-Wing series) and to me Star Wars is all about going on a recon mission with an A-Wing and ending up destroying the whole imperial convoy, freighters, corvettes, and their escorting fighters and start destroyers, alone. And that's not something that one could do in an RPG (critical hits are less forgiving than loosy computer targetting AI!)...

See, even a game like Dark Forces (where you basically play Doomguy in space) ended up making your character a Jedi as soon as the second episode of the series.

I think the Star Wars RPG should propose more material about the Old Republic era (KotOR's timeline) because when everybody wants to be a jedi, a pilot, or a jedi pilot, that's where it's the easiest to fit.

 

[Felon]

Yeah, but that's kinda a problem with the setting. I'm contemplating joining a SW game, and here I am asking myself: "what else than a pilot or a Jedi can be played in SW?"

True, in a lot of ways Star Wars does not lend itself to an RPG. You have one protagonist who basically gets all the cool toys, and a bunch of other protagonists who sort of fly by the seat of their pants relying on resourcefulness and pure luck.

As I've said, that's why the focus should be on making a great sci-fi game in its own right, which may mean not just being constrained to faithful recreations the characters and events from the movies. Go ahead and introduce new stuff as long as it feels like it could have belonged in the movies.

I think the Star Wars RPG should propose more material about the Old Republic era (KotOR's timeline) because when everybody wants to be a jedi, a pilot, or a jedi pilot, that's where it's the easiest to fit.

If everybody thinks their options are limited to jedi, pilot, or jedi pilot, then you probably don't have a game at that point.

 

[Flynn]

If I run it, I'd like to see something else than 4 padawans in the group.

I guess it's good point to expand from, since there seemed to be enough PC options to make non-Jedis viable.

Having played it once so far, I can definitely say that the other character options are no longer secondary to the jedi, and you'll definitely see more than four padawans in the group. I am looking forward to future one-shots so that I can continue to test the system before committing to a full campaign. It's a practice I highly recommend.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[Klaus]

IMO< this is actually one of the more questionable aspects of SWSE. They introduced a new skill system that gives a flat +5, and half your level adds into all checks, and you can still take 10. Now with that being the case, it's pretty clear to me that they should've reconsidered some of the things you can do with a DC15 or 20 skill check. Personally, I'm not so crazy about a jedi spamming the "search your feelings" bit with his Use the Force skill to know whether or not his every action will have favorable or unfavorable consequences, or using "sense your surroundings" to pop enemies out of hiding constantly.

I think folks are rushing to heap praise on SWSE without taking a granular look at things. It's a great system, but there are things that should be raising a few eyebrows too.

Yeah, what's this about taking a round of no distraction to determine if your next action will have negative repercussions in the next minute or so?


Seriously, how many times in the movies have a character uttered "I have a bad feeling about this"? This is what Search Your Feelings is.

 

[satori01]

That means providing a multitude of options rather than stripping them down due to an mperative to be steadfastly faithful to the source material. It's a far better thing to be able to have Star Wars adventures with new options than to be stuck just doing faithful imitations.

I find this so wrong as to be incredibly silly to my ears. RCR Star Wars had an imminently balanced system for force powers that felt like it had no relation to the movies, and thus was rejected by many people for the simple reason :

It did not feel like Star Wars.

Feel is paramount for a cultural phenomenon. D&D is not a translation of LOTR, the tradition of D&D while drawing upon fantasy literature is separate from Conan, Tolkein, Leber etc.
Not so for Star Wars.

Re: rules for equipment, I do not think it is mere handwaving to state that there are plenty of other D20 systems, including the RCR that have rules for customizing equipment. As ballyhooed as people get about broadening the RPG market, or bringing in new players, the reality is that Star Wars appeals to an older audience, and those that pick up the RPG were probably already gamers.

 

[Imaro]

IMO< this is actually one of the more questionable aspects of SWSE. They introduced a new skill system that gives a flat +5, and half your level adds into all checks, and you can still take 10. Now with that being the case, it's pretty clear to me that they should've reconsidered some of the things you can do with a DC15 or 20 skill check. Personally, I'm not so crazy about a jedi spamming the "search your feelings" bit with his Use the Force skill to know whether or not his every action will have favorable or unfavorable consequences, or using "sense your surroundings" to pop enemies out of hiding constantly.

I think folks are rushing to heap praise on SWSE without taking a granular look at things. It's a great system, but there are things that should be raising a few eyebrows too.

As far as the skill system...I like it. It alleviates the "not enough skill points" problem that crops up in D&D. I also think that characters in Star Wars don't fit the "scrubs" to "gods" advancement scheme in D&D either. IMHO, even starting charcaters should be able to do things with a high level of success...it's space opera and in my mind that's a staple of the genre. I mean lets be real...if they're "trained" in a skill, I'm assuming they've spent years practicing or training in it. Those are the skills they specialize in and it's refreshing that they actually start competent in them...it lends the game a more heroic aspect.

I don't want Star Wars to be a "gritty" sci-fi game...it should have a totally different feel from this, and I think the new game succeeds at that. Characters aren't afraid to try heroic stuff and that definitely fits the genre. But then I'm the type of GM who wants the players to have a better than average chance to succeed, that way when they do fail it's dramatic. D20 as D&D really puts to much emphasis on the roll of the die at lower levels...to the point where it's just as likely a character will succeed at something as fail.

Y'know, it has occurred to me that, having played my share of Star Wars (d6 system and True20, not SWSE), I'm not sure that reflecting the movies is really that huge of a consideration, because my gamers ultimately didn't want to play their characters like the characters in the movies.

Just as we accept that D&D wizards want to crank out far more firepower than Gandalf ever did, and accept that D&D barbarians can tear apart things that would have left Conan soiling his loincloth, I think the designers probably need to concede how a Star Wars game will be played differently from the source material that inspired it. From my experiences, the number of folks who want to play Princess Leia or 3PO are far-exceeded by folks who want to play Boba Fett or HK-47--and of course, that's leaving out all of the folks clamoring to create a cast of jedi warriors.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very glad SWSE provides tools for folks to play diplomats and lightly-armed smugglers along with combat gods. However, that's just for starters. I think they need to go deep on expanding the selection of gadgets and weapons, which basically take the place of magic items and spells for the option-hungry players (again, I'm talking non-jedi). Iin general, I'd like to see the wealth of options for building characters that you get in D&D, so they don't fall into the same trap as D20 Modern where feat chains ultimately provided for only two combat styles: dual-pistols or assaut rifle. For the players who live to tinker with builds, that can be stifling.

I really think you're short changing both the abilities the other classes get and the possibilities available through multi-classing. Some people might not want to play a Noble, but saying their weak in combat isn't true...check out the Noble's Demand Surrender Talent...wicked. I could even see a soldier taking a level of noble just to get this ability.

In fact I think the talents and feats together provide for numerous "options" for characters, combat based and non-combat based. I certainly don't see the soldier as regulated to dual-pistols or assault rifle. Though I will say that I in no way want SWSE to go the route of D&D. Feats, base clases, PrC's, etc. I'd prefer no new base classes, but new talent trees for the already exsisting classes, very few if any new feats...as I've seen this spiral with D&D where there are a multitude of sub-standard options that could have easily been left out...but generate cash, so were included.

 

[maddman75]

I'm very interested in Saga, especially if it feels more like the movies. I don't want a generic system, I want a system that does what it does. If I want a generic sci-fi game I'll get GURPS or something. For Star Wars I want Jedi, lightsabers, blasters, fast space battles that feel like dogfights, weird aliens, stormtroopers, and Imperial Star Destroyers.

One question though - in the rules, is it possible to cut off someone's hand with a lightsaber? This is an important question, and IMO shows how much they value balance vs being true to the movies.

 

[Imaro]

I'm very interested in Saga, especially if it feels more like the movies. I don't want a generic system, I want a system that does what it does. If I want a generic sci-fi game I'll get GURPS or something. For Star Wars I want Jedi, lightsabers, blasters, fast space battles that feel like dogfights, weird aliens, stormtroopers, and Imperial Star Destroyers.

One question though - in the rules, is it possible to cut off someone's hand with a lightsaber? This is an important question, and IMO shows how much they value balance vs being true to the movies.

Yes you can...but you have to have the "Severing Strike" talent from the Jedi Knight Duelist Talent Tree. It allows you to sever a hand, arm or leg.

 

[BryonD]

Yeah, what's this about taking a round of no distraction to determine if your next action will have negative repercussions in the next minute or so?


Seriously, how many times in the movies have a character uttered "I have a bad feeling about this"? This is what Search Your Feelings is.

I have to side with Felon on this one.
Your response does not address the significant gulf between the catching the feel presented in the movies and the mechanical implications of how the rules play it out.