Star Wars Saga Edition?

[Nightchilde-2]

I didn't have to look hard for the problem, it was right out in the open. You had to look away to pretent it isn't there.

But seriously, how do you consider searching your feelings at every opportunity to be a case of player abuse? The book allows him to take 10 and get a 15. There is no limit on uses per day. This is a tool the game gave him to use. How is he in the wrong for using it? Is a character in the wrong for using Diplomacy or Pilot skill to avoid trouble more than X number of times per day? Blame the game, not the player.

To bring it around to D&D terms, is a rogue abusing the Search ability to search ever...5...foot...square...for...traps?

No. But it sure does irritate the crap out of me as a DM.

 

[Imaro]

As I've said, weapons and gadgets are the equivalent of your sci-fi magic items and spells; they're both the carrots you seek to acquire during the course of the game (magic items), and they're the modular components that you can customize and swap out easily (spells).

No...no...no so then we can have certain equipment by certain levels, I'll pass. Let the technology be window dressing and the characters be defined by who they are and the choices they make(ie talents, feats and classes). I honestly think this is why Star Wars has a higher competency level than D&D

As I said, don't get me wrong (not that it really helped; people got me wrong despite telling them otherwise), I like the basic infrastructure of SWSE. Class features are a starting point for characters, so for the sake of simplicity they need to be pretty basic, finite, and none too modular. Feats are more expansive, and they're a good area for expanding options. In D&D, feats branched off into new areas like tactical, weapon style, and reserve feats. I'd like to similar arrangements here that avoid the limitations players can experience with D20 Modern (which I alread went into).

What exactly are these limitations you keep talking about? For a soldier he can be a melee specialist(one-handed or two-handed, or double weapon), demolitions expert, battle tactician, blaster specialist, exotic weapon specialist, expert with armor, etc. and those are just a few single class options. I don't want to see Star Wars become rules bloated(more actions, more types of feats, etc.) like 3.5...it would defeat the purpose of having a streamlined system in the first place. If I even see a hint this is the road it's taking I'm through.

If you provide the tools too create a compelling, fun game, people will play it. They might debate continuity, but they'll play.

Wrong...people bought it as a way to play Star Wars. You don't think people would be pissed to find Klingons, the Peacekeepers and Cylons had suddenly become "core" for roleplaying in Star Wars...you don't think that would affect sales? Regardless of the tools you provide, licensed games come with certain expectations. There are some people who will buy this book because they are Star Wars fans, even though they have no intention of ever playing. IMHO your theory is just bad business sense.

The solution is pretty simple: blend the familiar tropes in with new material. You've still got your x-wings and wompas, but now your soldier PC might have some cool weapon for taking out the opposition.

That does what exactly? We've got stun weapons, energy weapons, slugthrowers, vibro weapons, ion weapons, archaic weapons...in the end they're all ways to do the same basic thing...take an opponent out. Why exactly do we need more types of damage...,but there's only room in a book for so much stuff, and before you start throwing your own made up stuff in there...yes I want the stuff I've seen in the movies, books, and comics first. That's why I bought a Star Wars game.

Felon, you seem to want SWSE to be a toolbox game, like D&D 3.5, the problem is it was never meant to be that. It has a specific setting, with specific tropes that have, to a point, been well defined. I personally don't want D&D or d20 in Space...I like the simplicity of the game and feel it fits the mood and genre of Star Wars, what I bought the game to play.

 

[Felon]

You're talking about a hard coded rule; I'm not. I don't think one is needed, because I don't think people would use it before every trip to the john. Granted, some people have problems with a Paladins detect evil used like a radar. Possible within rules, but no player of mine has used it like that.

OK, and that's where you stand: you don't think your players will overuse it, so you're not concerned. I don't think something abstract as the honor system is an airtight method for rule design though. Should the designers think all players are like yours, or should they actually keep an eye to the worst offenders?

Besides, by the book a jedi could use move light object take out the trash, move drinks from the bar to his table, flush the john, etc.. with no limitation. Hell, anakin and obie would've probably communicated by telepathy by taking 10 all the time. Do you have any problem with that?

Well, there is the fact that no force-user uses the force that way in the movies, regardless of which side of the force they're on. But in general, the potential for disrupting the game is less than knowing for a fact when your character is or isn't about to go from "safe" to "jeopardy" or vice-versa.

Now, you have problem with that style, but you would have no problem saying the above quote to players who've reached some hardcoded SAGA rules quota? "Only 3 searchings of feelings per day! Coruscant 24 hour day, that is! That's how they got pwned"

I think it'd be a better idea for the designers to take into account that getting a 15 doesn't require a roll. What happened in this thread is exactly what happens in 90% of the threads. I brought up a general issue with the ease with which taking 10 allows for automatic successes when your getting a flat +5 from training plus half-your level. The Use the Force abuses were just an example of what I was talking about.

Sure enough, people being what they are, the big picture issue exits short term memory almost immediately and what they focus on is deconstructing the examples.

I wasn't advocating adding a SAGA-style quota, but rather just boosting the DC so that your entry-level padawan actually has to roll, and will at least once in a while find his feelings unsearchable or his surroundings unsensible or what have you.

So the player can roll(just like any skill) to see if it will work, but (just like any skill) it only benefits him in very particular situations...otherwise.

OK, I pointed this out, and then Bryon D pointed it out, but I'm going to point it out one more time: everything we're talking stems from the fact there is no roll for these checks. "Search your feelings" will succeed every time, with no chance for failure. Any jedi's feeling will always be trustworthy.

The potential for problems is most clear-cut when the story is at a point where the pace is about to change. Knowing infallably whether or not you'll be safe taking an action is a pretty easy to know whether there's about to be a gear shift. Instead of focusing on all the scenarios where searching feelings will produce vague or useless results (which is basically when the danger level is constant), consider the reprecussions of when it can spoil the fun by ruining the element of surprise that is so often crucial to Star Wars.

 

[Felon]

To bring it around to D&D terms, is a rogue abusing the Search ability to search ever...5...foot...square...for...traps?

No. But it sure does irritate the crap out of me as a DM.

Yeah, me too. But the rogue in that scenario is not doing anything wrong either. He's just playing the hand the rules dealt him. If the rules let rogues get a passive check (as I suspect they will in 4e), then he wouldn't have to resort to that method of trapfinding.

 

[gribble]

OK, I pointed this out, and then Bryon D pointed it out, but I'm going to point it out one more time: everything we're talking stems from the fact there is no roll for these checks.

Just a thought - maybe thats intentional? One thing I've learned from reading the WotC forums is that the designers of Saga aren't stupid. Where "mechanics issues" like these seem to appear, 99 times out of 100 it hasn't actually been an issue but something the designers/developers fully realised and intended to do. If you take a look at some of the threads over there, pretty much every rules "issue/quirk" that people have brought up have been intentional design decisions (and the designers/developers usually provide statistical analyses to back up their claims that it should work that way).

Put another way - maybe it's something they realised every Jedi would be rolling for all the time, so they've just gone ahead and implemented the "passive search" concept right off the bat (except in stressful conditions, when they can't take 10)?

 

[Felon]

What exactly are these limitations you keep talking about? For a soldier he can be a melee specialist(one-handed or two-handed, or double weapon), demolitions expert, battle tactician, blaster specialist, exotic weapon specialist, expert with armor, etc. and those are just a few single class options.

Most of those don't actually constitute a combat style. You're basically looking at an assault rifle hoser or a dual-pistol wielder.

I don't want to see Star Wars become rules bloated(more actions, more types of feats, etc.) like 3.5...it would defeat the purpose of having a streamlined system in the first place. If I even see a hint this is the road it's taking I'm through.

Well, if I see a hint that it's taking that road, my interet will be piqued, so I guess we cancel each other out. If "streamlined" is just a euphemism for stripping away options (which are pejoratively referred to as "bloated rules"), I'll play the skirmish minis game instead. When I play an RPG character, I want options.

Wrong...people bought it as a way to play Star Wars.

Wrong...people bought it to play a fun, compelling game. See how easy that is for everyone to do, not just you?

You don't think people would be pissed to find Klingons, the Peacekeepers and Cylons had suddenly become "core" for roleplaying in Star Wars...you don't think that would affect sales? Regardless of the tools you provide, licensed games come with certain expectations. There are some people who will buy this book because they are Star Wars fans, even though they have no intention of ever playing. IMHO your theory is just bad business sense.

Folks who buy the book without intending to play just because its Star Wars have pretty handily accomplished what the license is intended to do: draw people in. If the game is compelling and fun, then that pretty much kills all objections. Go ahead and do a Star Wars/Star Trek crossover in your campaign. Heck, I used to see stuff like that all the time in AD&D. Fought Thanos from Marvel Comics with Stormbringer. Guess we were just too busy enjoying ourselves to realize we should have been outraged.

Likewise, if the game is not compelling and fun--if the tinkerers get bored playing their characters--it doesn't matter how faithful or official the game is, does it?

 

[gribble]

The potential for problems is most clear-cut when the story is at a point where the pace is about to change. Knowing infallably whether or not you'll be safe taking an action is a pretty easy to know whether there's about to be a gear shift. Instead of focusing on all the scenarios where searching feelings will produce vague or useless results (which is basically when the danger level is constant), consider the reprecussions of when it can spoil the fun by ruining the element of surprise that is so often crucial to Star Wars.

Under these situations, I'd be more than happy with the GM ruling that the situation was stressful/distracting and hence the Jedi couldn't take 10. Circumstance modifiers could also apply, making the check more difficult ("Difficult to see the future is, clouded by the Dark Side..."). All of this is well within the RAW and doesn't make it "infallable" at all.

 

[Felon]

Put another way - maybe it's something they realised every Jedi would be rolling for all the time, so they've just gone ahead and implemented the "passive search" concept right off the bat (except in stressful conditions, when they can't take 10)?

OK, let's explore that. Is a jedi having an infallable, infinitely-reusable magic 8-ball for indicating the fortuitousness of his actions a desirable or undesirable thing for playing Star Wars? I've gotta go with no, it can kill a lot of suspense.

The same would go for a rogue being able to automatically detect traps. Combining automatic detection with passive detection would tend to make the whole detection element rather pointless, except to ensure the party kept a rogue around.

 

[gribble]

Wrong...people bought it to play a fun, compelling game.

Wrong...people bought it to play a fun, compelling Star Wars game. Are you really trying to argue that someone who wasn't interested in playing a Star Wars game would pick up the Star Wars RPG (rules tinkerers who buy systems to rip apart rather than play as written excepted - but they are no where near the majority of purchasers)?

 

[LostSoul]

The potential for problems is most clear-cut when the story is at a point where the pace is about to change. Knowing infallably whether or not you'll be safe taking an action is a pretty easy to know whether there's about to be a gear shift.

How would you use it in this situation:

Situation: You are going to talk to Tooba Don-Oota, the Twi'lek Jedi Loremaster. He has some secrets to tell your young Jedi. But on your trail is the evil Sith Warrior Rossan, and in 5 minutes he's going to find you and attack.

What action do you Sense your Feelings about? What would it tell you on a successful roll?

What if you are the DM? What information would you reveal on a successful check?