Star Wars Saga Edition?

[gribble]

"Search your feelings" is infallable in that it always works.

I've already addressed this blatantly incorrect assumption of yours - I note you haven't bothered to respond to those posts.

It is not all-knowing because it doesn't convey much information. It is just enough for a savvy force-user to use it as reliable gauge for when the gear shifts coming.

Now who's quibbling about semantics?

OK, then...you're reading a different section of the book or something, or you just understand what I'm saying, because this isn't up for personal interpretation.

Right, and your personal interpretation is just plain wrong, according to the rulebook I'm reading. I'll make it simple for you:

• It's a full round action to perform, therefore requires considerable concentration and effort - it's not something that any person would be using constantly.
• To be fearful enough to ask "20 questions" before every encounter is definitely treading down the path to the darkside, and worthy of awarding DSPs.
• It has to be used on a "particular action", and it only lets you know if that action would have "favorable or unfavorable results to you".
• Any situation relating to using it to sense danger would by definition be stressful and/or distracting, so in these situations you can't take 10.
• There could very well be circumstance penalties that apply (especially if you're using the "20 questions method" to answer something that it's not intended to be used for).

How characters can use that to predict a "change of gears" in any reasonably intelligent and complex adventure is beyond me. If you're so big on proof over assertions, prove that it can be used in this manner.

The scenes you're talking about aren't 10-minute warning systems at work. It's more like good Spot and Initiative checks.

Oh please... Obi Wan even uses the phrase "I feel it too".

And this is why you'll ultimately get guys like Moogle agreeing with you, because they'll applaud your wonderful, exciting imagery and passionate assertions rather than any kind of in-depth, substantive analysis.

Now who's mis-quoting bits of a reply and using the "Jazz defence"?

Sorry, this is pretty superficial stuff. Is the Star Wars "feel" just a thin coat of paint?

If that's the case you shouldn't have any problems describing another sci-fi setting where all of the above fits in. Please do so.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Jedis are not supposed to "consistently make the right decision". They make mistakes all the time.

That's still accurate to the Saga rules.

Search your feelings and the like don't actually give you accurate predictions of the future. Instead, you simply get a sense of it. A ripple and/or distrubance in the Force fits this well. You just feel something...what that something IS becomes completely up to the Jedi to determine, and making the wrong choice is still very much an option.

A Jedi uses it on a 'door'. They sense that opening the door would be bad. But that isn't the important part...the why is. For all they know, opening the door is bad not because of what's behind it, but because someone else nearby will not be saved by the Jedi because they're inspecting what's behind the current door.

Basically, it falls to the GM on how much information is truly conveyed.

 

[gribble]

A full-round action is nothing outside of combat.

Wrong again. Please point me to where in the rulebook it says that a full round action only applies within a combat environment?
When performing a full round action a character cannot take any other actions. When doing so over multiple rounds, a character is performing nothing else - no moving, no activating items, no opening doors - nothing.
A character doing this all day every day would, in essence, be sitting there and meditating.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

And this is why you'll ultimately get guys like Moogle will raise their hand and salute you, because they'll applaud your wonderful, exciting imagery and passionate assertions rather than any kind of in-depth, substantive analysis of what's under the hood. It's also why used car salesmen will never go out of business.

I don't even freaking LIKE Star Wars, Felon. I loved the X-Wing vs. Tie-Fighter PC game and enjoyed the original trilogy. But compared to Final Fantasy or Conan or even something I only like, rather than love, such as Barsoom/John Carter of Mars, I could take or leave Star Wars.

In other words, exciting imagery about Star Wars "feel" means squat to me. I bought the game because the previews made it look "like d20, only much, much better - like, SotC or M&M better." You know what? I've been running it since it came out, and did extensive playtesting when I first got it. So far, it's exactly what the previews made it seem like.

I'm not actually agreeing with gribble, I think. Since I want to use the superior system for the same things I would have used d20 Modern or Savage Worlds for before, I'd actually rather it be more generic, not less.

But I disagree with YOU vehemently because I think the system is amazing from a purely mechanical perspective. I want to strip all the Star Wars flavor from it and use it for completely different settings, and am only enjoying the Star Wars "test" game by virtue of the players and the rules.

I find your mechanical issues laughable, issues of playstyle easily corrected, if they cropped up at all, by any player at the table snorting derisively at your hypothetical paranoiac Jedi player, much less the GM slapping said player down and reminding him not to drag the game down by making a skill check every few seconds.

I also find the idea of a character attuned to supernatural senses, like a Jedi or Spiderman or a Zen warrior-mystic, being able to accurately predict his surroundings and react to them on a constant basis, rather cool. Used reasonably (as reasonably as I expect Perception to be used, because they have approximately the same potential for the outrageous, Zork-esque "abuse" you describe), a character being able to Take 10 to do that strikes me as a feature not a bug.

My perspective is that Search Your Feelings, like Perception, can only be used to excess by a socially maladjusted nut in a group comprised entirely of same. "Idiot-proofing" a system should protect it from mistakes by novice players, and to give mechanically-oriented players something worth fiddling with - not to smooth play for apprentices to rpg.net's legendary Creepy Gamer thread.

 

[Felon]

I've already addressed this blatantly incorrect assumption of yours - I note you haven't bothered to respond to those posts.

I notice you want to keep quibbling about this when I pointed out this was just an example of a bigger issue I was speaking of. But fine, play ball.

Right, and your personal interpretation is just plain wrong, according to the rulebook I'm reading. I'll make it simple for you:

• It's a full round action to perform, therefore requires considerable concentration and effort - it's not something that any person would be using constantly.
• To be fearful enough to ask "20 questions" before every encounter is definitely treading down the path to the darkside, and worthy of awarding DSPs.
• It has to be used on a "particular action", and it only lets you know if that action would have "favorable or unfavorable results to you".
• Any situation relating to using it to sense danger would by definition be stressful and/or distracting, so in these situations you can't take 10.
• There could very well be circumstance penalties that apply (especially if you're using the "20 questions method" to answer something that it's not intended to be used for).

Let's see, your first bit about it taking a few seconds of concentration is generally meaningless. Not sure why you think otherwise.
Your next bit about it being darksiding to use an ability that's free to use all day long is reaching like crazy.
The third bit doesn't tell us anything new, and it's already been discussed ad nauseum as to how to play that little game. It ain't hard to work within these guidelines.
Using this aiblity is inherently stressful or distracting? Reaching again.
Making up circumstnace penalties is just the GM inventing obstacles that isn't provided for by the rules. Rules is what I'm talking about.

You so want this to be a non-issue that you're driving all over the place looking for limitations that are scarcely worth mentioning. I mean, you really want to argue with me that knowing whether the immediate outcome of your actions will be favorable or unfavorable is a minor, weak ability, that it's OK for it be something you can rely on to work every time? Man, I keep wanting to turn away from this thread, but part of me just has to see what you'll say next.

How characters can use that to predict a "change of gears" in any reasonably intelligent and complex adventure is beyond me.

It might be, but don't give up. I'm still hoping to make a breakthrough with you.

If you can take 10 and get a 15 automatically, as it's pretty safe a jedi trained in Use the Force can, then it always. Whatever else you're going on about, this is absolutely correct.

Wrong again. Please point me to where in the rulebook it says that a full round action only applies within a combat environment?
When performing a full round action a character cannot take any other actions. When doing so over multiple rounds, a character is performing nothing else - no moving, no activating items, no opening doors - nothing.
A character doing this all day every day would, in essence, be sitting there and meditating.

Gribble, you have shown yourself to interpret things so inccrrectly in this thread that I almost have to take my hat off to you for digging in your heels against the realization that you're not going to outmaneuver me.

Again I have to simplify: you pointed out that searching your feelings was a full-round action. I am explaining to you that spending a few seconds concentrating outside of combat is a negligible cost. It means nothing.

Where do you take this full-round action and somehow get the character sitting around doing nothing "all day every day"? He checks his feelings for a few seconds, then goes about this business checks it again next time he feels the need, then goes about his business.

 

[Felon]

I don't even freaking LIKE Star Wars, Felon. I loved the X-Wing vs. Tie-Fighter PC game and enjoyed the original trilogy. But compared to Final Fantasy or Conan or even something I only like, rather than love, such as Barsoom/John Carter of Mars, I could take or leave Star Wars.

Sorry, when you were raising your hand, it wasn't clear what you were raising it about (to me anyway). Thanks for clearing up the context.

But I disagree with YOU vehemently because I think the system is amazing from a purely mechanical perspective. I want to strip all the Star Wars flavor from it and use it for completely different settings, and am only enjoying the Star Wars "test" game by virtue of the players and the rules.

Why do you think you're disagreeing with me vehemently?

I've already said I love SWSE. I applaud it wildly. I am considering pulling the plug on my D&D campaign to take it for a spin. Go back a few pages and you'll see I started by just raising a point about an issue with taking 10 and the big bonuses that characters already have with trained skills--I didn't even say it crippled the game, just that I was "dubious" about it being a good idea. The "search your feelings" bit was an example that others chose to obsess over, rather than address the point. Happens all the time in these threads. The deconstructionists blow the example up so that it's the crux of the arguement, not just an example, and then suddenly it's me who's the Chicken Little screaming the sky is falling and blowing things out of proportion, not them.

Sure, it is easy to adjudicate that particular use of the skill. GM's can house-rule all kinds of stuff. But that's just cleaning up a messy aspect of the rules. It's not really addressing whether the rule is well-designed, it's just sidestepping and saying the GM can fix it. Should he fix it is really the question. Should something very potent--basically, a little augury spell usable at will--have a low DC that's virtually automatic for trained force users? Me, I say no.

Now, while I don't care that much about it, I am sure gonna debate with anyone who thinks that knowing whether every action they're considering will yield weal or woe is a weak, trivial ability with zero potential for disruption. With that hand of cards, I may not feel compelled to raise, but I sure ain't gonna fold either. I'll check. And in that respect, I am possibly my own worst enemy.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

After reading all this, I think I like the idea of easy-but-vague precognition.

If I were the GM, I would periodically use that to tell the player of the Jedi: "You feel a great sense of Doom approaching." After all, PCs always get into dangerous situations, and this power only makes them more paranoid.

And if they are seeking for a way out with the help of this power, I would provide them one - via the escape pod or vehicle. This won't help them fulfill their job or save the princess, but it will ensure their survival - if they can live with being cowards.

 

[Victim]

Really, the 1 minute look ahead on Search Your Feelings seems worthless to me. A glass of wine loaded with a poison that infallibly kills in 2 minutes (or 1 day, etc) will read as perfectly safe. It's a divination that's totally blind to any long term effects. And 2 minutes is pretty short term, but still beyond the horizon of the ability. Having to fight some people (possible harm) to win an ally will show as only harmful/dangerous since the value of the ally is too far ahead to see. In most situations in which the short view time of SYF isn't crippling, that action required to use it will be a problem.

I don't think my Jedi character has ever used it, since the information it provides is pretty much worthless.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Really, the 1 minute look ahead on Search Your Feelings seems worthless to me.

Additionally, if something bad is going to happen, it only gives them a 1 minute advance warning. What they're going to do? Igniting the light saber? Well, Jedis in the movies were basically never caught in an ambush, so it's fitting.

 

[Numion]

Additionally, if something bad is going to happen, it only gives them a 1 minute advance warning. What they're going to do? Igniting the light saber? Well, Jedis in the movies were basically never caught in an ambush, so it's fitting.

In EPIII they walked to a trap in a corridor - but that's plausible since there's little reason to stop for 6 seconds every minute to search feelings when walking a straight corridor. (Well, ok, Obi-Wan comments that they should've been more careful. How fitting )