Star Wars Spoilers Thread [Spoilers]

So here's my review: 100% a Star Wars film which belongs with the original trilogy.

It's a transitional film, but it does it well. The new generation is really good.

I think the major death was kinda signposted a bit. You knew it was coming long before it happened. I felt worse for Chewie, but he, Rey, and BB8 make a great team.

Is this the first Star Wars film where nobody gets their hand cut off?

Luke lives in Ireland, eh?

Question: WHY was there a map to Luke, and why was it split into two? I feel like I missed something. For that matter, why a map and not just some coordinates? Seems like a random puzzle set up for the sake of it.

 

[Cor Azer]

It would make Rey less of a Mary Sue character.

I've seen this sentiment a few places. I disagree with it, but even allowing for it, how is Rey's treatment any different than Luke's or Anakin's treatments in A New Hope or The Phantom Menace respectively? Arguably, Anakin's is worse, because while we knew he'd grow into a good pilot and powerful user of the Force, there was really no reason to also tack on expert mechanical skills as well.

Do you consider Luke and Anakin to be Gary Stu's?

 

[Raunalyn]

There was a bit too much nostalgia bait. And Kylo Ren did not end the movie as a credible threat.

He started off great, what with being able to mind-read better than anyone else in the movies. Which would have been enough, an enemy that knows what you are doing is terrifying as hell, especially if they used to be your friend/family.

But then the Stormtroopers comically avoiding his tantrums, untrained Ray overpowering his mind-hax, and all that screaming to Finn about him being a traitor after stabbing his old man, just totally ruined the character for me.

I feel the character would have been more interesting if he had actually "fell" to the light side and he spent the 2nd movie dealing with the guilt of killing all those people while they looked for Luke. It would make a nice contrast to Finn, who ran away from the order presumably before he killed anyone. They could even throw in a scene about Finn not taking orders from him anymore.

What I took away from that fight was that the only reason that Rey was able to overcome Ren was because he was injured. He was growing weak and getting distracted by the pain. This was evident with the wild, unpredictable swings from both of the combatants. I think that the next time they meet, Ren will be ready for her and Rey may not be ready for him.

 

[Umbran]

It would make the Kylo Ren appear to be a more credible threat,

He's not supposed to be, yet! He hasn't even finished his training! He's like Luke in Empire.

Kylo Ren is *not* Darth Vader. He is clearly established as a wannabe, not yet a real power unto himself. He apes confidence, but when he gets frustrated, the young and petulant child emerges, and lashes out. Compare: When Darth Vader is told of a failure, he may be angry, but he is in control of that anger, and uses it to effect - he force chokes an officer and replaces him. Kylo Ren, when faced with frustration of his plans, lashes out at consoles with his lightsaber in a blatant temper tantrum.

This is the place where, among all the other homage to the original film, we see a departure from the formula. We are not watching the growth of a hero into his power, aiming to take down the established Baddest-Assed villain ever. We are watching the parallel growth of young heroes and young villain.

It would make Rey less of a Mary Sue character.

To quote someone who put it better than I:

"A "Mary Sue" is an author surrogate poorly inserted into an existing story who is ridiculously adept/sexy/cute/talented.
Rey is not a Mary Sue. Rey is what we in the writing field like to call a "woman."
A "woman" is kind of like a girl, but mature, capable, and not requiring your ****.
Please get used to the character type; you will be seeing more of them. Hopefully."

 

[Bagpuss]

I've seen this sentiment a few places. I disagree with it, but even allowing for it, how is Rey's treatment any different than Luke's or Anakin's treatments in A New Hope or The Phantom Menace respectively? Arguably, Anakin's is worse, because while we knew he'd grow into a good pilot and powerful user of the Force, there was really no reason to also tack on expert mechanical skills as well.

Do you consider Luke and Anakin to be Gary Stu's?

Boy Anakin in Episode 1 is pretty much a Gary Stu. Older Anakin makes mistakes and loses his fight with Obi-Wan.

I've no problem with Rey being an good pilot, mechanic and speaking several languages, after all she is kind of filling the Luke role in the movie and he is all those things. Being a decent pilot and mechanic seem to go hand in hand, and being multi-lingual isn't that uncommon in the Star Wars universe.

However Luke requires training to use the lightsabre, and even then he loses pretty much every battle he is in using it. You see Luke fail on several occasions. He also starts the film as a whinny bitch, but develops as the series goes on. The only point of vulnerability Rey shows in the film is when Kylo Ren holds her with the force, before bringing her back to Starkiller base, yet within moments of that, she is blocking his mind reading, and developing mind control all by herself. Now there maybe some explanation for all of this (like she's Luke's daughter, and very strong in the Force), but I still think it would have made for a more dramatic film if the hero was a little more at risk, and threatened.

 

[Bagpuss]

He's not supposed to be, yet! He hasn't even finished his training! He's like Luke in Empire.

Unlike Rey who as far as we are aware has had no training, rather than at least some, yet she seems to brush off his mind reading and develop mind control by herself.

We are not watching the growth of a hero into his power, aiming to take down the established Baddest-Assed villain ever. We are watching the parallel growth of young heroes and young villain.

Only we aren't Rey has clearly been established as superior without any apparent training. If anything she is the Vader.

To quote someone who put it better than I:

"A "Mary Sue" is an author surrogate poorly inserted into an existing story who is ridiculously adept/sexy/cute/talented.
Rey is not a Mary Sue. Rey is what we in the writing field like to call a "woman."
A "woman" is kind of like a girl, but mature, capable, and not requiring your ****.
Please get used to the character type; you will be seeing more of them. Hopefully."

Yeah "Mary Sue" as a trope has lost it's original meaning somewhat, and is now often used to refer to any flawless character that seems to be good at anything they turn their hand to, especially with little or no justification.

I've no problems with her being an expect mechanic, and climber it appears something she learned to do to survive on that planet. Her knowing the Falcon well, again no problem, it seemed implied she at least had something to do with the modifications that were done to it. Expert pilot? Well okay that seems to be something common among force users, they seem to be naturals already established with Luke/Anakin.

But why the force as well? Perhaps that will be revealed in the next film but really films should be able to stand on their own.

 

[Umbran]

You realize that she's not really more competent than Finn - who somehow manages to break his brainwashing, run around in active battle grounds and not get shot, BS trained diplomats into allowing an enemy soldier to lead an assault and rescue mission, intimidate officers with vastly superior experience, and with no apparent Force powers at all manages to stand his ground for a while against someone trained with a lightsaber?

And yet she's seen as too competent. She's vulnerable enough to get captured and strapped to a chair, but that's not vulnerable enough for you? Exactly how vulnerable do female characters need to be, for you to be happy?

 

[Morrus]

I think you guys were watching a different movie to me! She crashed the Falcon several times, she got her ass utterly kicked by Kylo Ren once, and in her second fight with him was pretty much desperately staggering back trying to survive until the last bit where she used the Force. I don't think she's as super-competent as folks are saying, though she clearly has an advantage by virtue of being strong in the Force (like Luke and Anakin were natural super-pilots, etc.)

Nah, she wasn't a Mary Sue. She competent, and a Force user. In other words, a real female protagonist.

Kylo was a stroke of genius. Trying to make him into a super villain like Dart Vader - the greatest movie villain ever to exist - would have instantly doomed the film to failure. There is no way to win that comparison, and even if you managed it, you'd be accused of simply copying. So they did the right thing - they took a completely different route. The fact that he's not as awesome as Vader is built-in to his character and drives his flaws. It makes him interesting.

Kylo Ren is Luke from the original trilogy, not Vader. The role is reversed - he's learning the dark side and trying to resist the light, unlike Luke whose arc was learning the light said and trying to resist the dark. Vader is the wrong comparison in terms of both ability and story role. This is the story of an evil Luke, not a second Vader.

 

[Morrus]

However Luke requires training to use the lightsabre, and even then he loses pretty much every battle he is in using it.

Does he? His battles include two with Vader, one on Jabba's skiff, and deflecting a few stormtrooper shots on Endor. Am I missing any lightsaber battles?

By my count he loses just one battle he uses it in - the one against Vader in Empire. And that guy's the Biggest Bad around, and he still knocks him down twice, and gets a couple of glancing blows in.

Nah, Luke's pretty darn good.

 

[TheWriterFantastic™]

The only thing that bugged me (which really isn't a big deal) was the fact that Rey understood BB8. I always thought when R2 beeped and people understood him, it was because C3P0 was there, or there was some screen to interpret. But Rey had none of that, so I guess people can understand droid beeps. I mean, Chewie roars and barks and is understood so I guess it shouldn't be too big of a stretch!

As problematic as the prequel trilogy was (what prequel trilogy), there was a deleted scene in Episode III that sort of answered the droid interpretation - there's a dialogue between Anakin and Obi-Wan while waiting for the lift in Grievous's warship, with Anakin throwing out Binary phrases (beeps, etc), asking for Obi-Wan's interpretation of the beeps. The scene finally answers the question, but since it didn't do much to drive the story, they likely cut it for that reason.

 

[billd91]

Does he? His battles include two with Vader, one on Jabba's skiff, and deflecting a few stormtrooper shots on Endor. Am I missing any lightsaber battles?

By my count he loses just one battle he uses it in - the one against Vader in Empire. And that guy's the Biggest Bad around, and he still knocks him down twice, and gets a couple of glancing blows in.

Nah, Luke's pretty darn good.

Darn straight he's good. He flies an X-wing (one of the most sophisticated ships in the fleet) like an ace with no training and hits an impossible shot. Rey's good, possibly better than Luke at her core competencies, but she doesn't pull off anything quite that spectacular.

I think anyone complaining that Rey is a Mary Sue needs to remember that she's a hero protagonist. They're almost always going to be better at stuff than everyone else in our everyday experiences... unless we're watching slapstick comedy and even then they'll pull things through. They're supposed to be a bit larger than life and see things through in the end. That doesn't make them a Mary Sue.