stat em up

[Evilhalfling]

But maybe warrior 2s? They were felled by a single strike or arrow on the average. Legolas' arrows can't do much more than 20 pts maximum (might +4, magic +5, +d8, +2 spec), and even thats a big stretch.

He [Boromir] was killed by, what, 3 arrows? Thats like 20-30 hp, which makes him about 2-4th level.

In MERP the game based directly on LotR arrows were far deadlier.
Islidur was also felled by 3 orc arrows. Another parallel between the two men.
I love the fact that both of these details from the books made it into the movies, as Islidur's floating body had 3 arrows lodged in it. It is the little touches that make fanatics like myself happy

I would agree that the fellowship of the ring ranges from 12th-7th in level excepting gandalf, and the hobbits. The hobbits were at least 3rd by the time they reached rivendale, and at least 6th (for leadership) by the time Merry and Pippen returned to the shire.

 

[Ron]

[...]

Again: the books are much better if read as written. Things were pretty desperate, and not some sideshow for a 60th level Gandalf.

I agree with that. Much of my reluctance of giving really high levels to the fellowship members is not to spoil the desperate mood they were acting during the book. If you stat Aragorn and Gandalf as epic characters, you took much of the heroism of their deeds as their sacrifices became smaller.

 

[Numion]

In MERP the game based directly on LotR arrows were far deadlier.

Um .. sorry, MERP wasn't based directly on LotR. Far from it. All the name characters had so diriculous levels and equipment it was nothing like the book. It was really flashy stuff too, like the shield that returned when thrown (who had that? Aragorn?) .. more like Forgotten Realms than Middle-Earth.

 

[Raven Crowking]

But opening the ol' can of whoop-ass on a friggin Balrog wasn't? [divinely forbidden]

Nope. He was to be guide and (to a degree) protector. He also knew that every time he used magic, it could be detected by the Enemy. He only fought the Balrog because the need was very great.

[Boromir] was killed by, what, 3 arrows? Thats like 20-30 hp, which makes him about 2-4th level.

Again, I suggest reading the book over watching the movie. In the book, it took a lot more than three arrows to slay Boromir.

A mile, maybe, from Parth Galen in a little glade not far from the lake he found Boromir. He was sitting with his back to a great tree, as if he was resting. But Aragorn saw that he was pierced with many black-feathered arrows; his sword was still in his hand, but it was broken near the hilt; his horn cloven in two was at his side. Many Orcs lay slain, piled all about him and at his feet.

We should also remember that Orc weapons are often poisoned. On top of the arrows, Boromir could have been cut with a sword (many were around him). Aragorn says, in The Two Towers, tending Sam's wounds from Moria:

"The cut is not poisoned, as the wounds of orc-blades too often are."

RC

 

[Numion]

Nope. He was to be guide and (to a degree) protector. He also knew that every time he used magic, it could be detected by the Enemy. He only fought the Balrog because the need was very great.

I was replying to the claims that Gandalf was actually a demigod who could've whoop-assed anyone, but for some divine restriction never mentioned in the books decided not to. What you said is more in line with the books. He didn't use the limited magic he had because of fear of detection .. not because it was forbidden.

Again, I suggest reading the book over watching the movie. In the book, it took a lot more than three arrows to slay Boromir.

Well in the books he was killed by mook orcs none the less. The books, IMO, give no indication that the heroes were superheroes - thats good enough for me. Obviously Gandalf wasn't a human (because of the age alone), but he wasn't a 60th level blaster either. He did the things he did because it was all he was physically and mentally able to do - not because of a divine ban on his 1337 PWRZ.

 

[D+1]

LOTR characters simply do not translate properly into D&D. D&D proceeds upon basic assumptions that the trilogy, et. al. just do not adapt well to. Gandalf is a wizard; a spellcaster. Outside the entrance to Moria he is trying to figure out the words for opening the doors. He boasts that he "once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind." That's 200 spells off the top of his head - JUST FOR OPENING DOORS - and he knows a LOT more. The magic systems are thus demonstrably, and UTTERLY incompatible.

Just on that basis alone, doing up Gandalf with D&D stats must be PURELY speculative and interpretational. On any of a dozen different aspects any D&D stats anyone comes up with are demonstrably wrong.

The world he inhabits simply does not and CANNOT conform to D&D rules without savagely altering that world as it is presented in Prof. T's works.

Oh, it's still a fun exercise, but it's a Kobayashi Maru test. There is no correct resolution. The aim of the test is not the ANSWER in and of itself. The aim of the test is to enable observation of how and why you attempt to arrive at an answer. It's a test of one's methodology, not veracity.

 

[D+1]

Well in the books he was killed by mook orcs none the less. The books, IMO, give no indication that the heroes were superheroes - thats good enough for me.

But that in turn indicates that the orcs are not "mook" orcs. The Uruk Hai in particular are clearly better than "mook" status, but LotR orcs are NOT D&D orcs any more than Aragorn can truly be called a D&D "ranger" even though the class was clearly originally based on the character.

Boromir, by accounts was one of the greatest mortal fighting men of Middle Earth, but is surrounded and outnumbered by enemies and slain. Aragorn, Eomer, and Imrahil on the other hand are specifically noted as having managed to fight the entire day at the Battle of the Pellanor Fields until they are "weary beyond joy or sorrow", but head back to the city UNSCATHED when it's over.

Now there's no indication that Eomer is a vastly better warrior than Boromir, or that Boromir is a vastly inferior warrior to Eomer. The constraints of the D&D rules defy that these two outcomes could nonetheless exist within the D&D rules. I can't think of any reason why these two shouldn't be very close in level and skills (except perhaps riding) but then how can Boromir die so easily even IF he's outnumbered and Eomer fight all day long and not get a scratch? D&D rules effectively dicatate that they CANNOT have remotely similar levels or skills.

The only factors I can think of that MIGHT make a difference is firstly that Boromir was fighting Uruk Hai, whereas Eomer was apparantly fighting largely Southrons and Easterlings after Aragorns arrival by ship and the bulk of the forces of Mordor fled the field. That and Boromir was effectively alone at his death, whereas Eomer et. al. had troops and compatriots all around and would have had far superior tactical options available to them. Maybe that alone IS the difference.

But still, Middle Earth never has translated very well to D&D. It can be adapted but not with too much literal accuracy to Tolkiens presentation.

 

[kolikeos]

He was killed by, what, 3 arrows? Thats like 20-30 hp, which makes him about 2-4th level.

hp, in my opinion, do not always apply as wounds, because in the real world, people, no matter what level they are, usely die from 1-3 hits

so boromir most likely lost most of his hp from the other orcs even though he was not directly hit, and the last one was just the lucky one to give the last strike

edit: this was mentiond by ron up there, i did not notice before posting

 

[kolikeos]

...Because LotR is IMO a better book if you forget that and just take it as you see it...

i very much agree

(btw whats imo?)

 

[kolikeos]

Produce Flame - Fighting with Worgs
? - calling eagles for rescue

i would say it was fire seeds for the worgs and massge for the calling

...then he breaks his staff, and the bridge with it.

could gandolf's staff be a staff of power or a staff of the magi?
(maybe, but not likely, as it would blow gandolf to bits, unless he has LOTS of hp)