stat em up

[kolikeos]

Have you ever actually READ the books and background material?

i read the 3 lotr and the hobbit, i did not, however, read the seminarlyon (or whatever) which is what you are refering to, most likely.

 

[Numion]

Because such direct action was divinely forbidden to him.

But opening the ol' can of whoop-ass on a friggin Balrog wasn't?

4. There is also Gimli and Legolas's orc-killing competition at the battle of Helm's Deep to consider. At 40+ orcs each, they are clearly mid-level since Saruman's Uruk Hai were no orc warrior 1s.

But maybe warrior 2s? They were felled by a single strike or arrow on the average. Legolas' arrows can't do much more than 20 pts maximum (might +4, magic +5, +d8, +2 spec), and even thats a big stretch.

5. Boromir's defense of Merry and Pippin agains the band of Uruk Hai is also quite impressive.

He was killed by, what, 3 arrows? Thats like 20-30 hp, which makes him about 2-4th level.

 

[Dogbrain]

But opening the ol' can of whoop-ass on a friggin Balrog wasn't?

The Balrog could be dealt with in such a fashion because the Balrog had already broken the rule and had done so during the First Age, which means that dealing with it wasn't bound by the restrictions of later ages. Mithrandir could act more freely. Now, given that the Balrog was powerful enough to single-handedly destroy the most powerful Dwarven nation that had ever existed, that would mean that Gandalf should be on the order of a deity when it comes to powers.

 

[Ron]

[...]He [Boromir] was killed by, what, 3 arrows? Thats like 20-30 hp, which makes him about 2-4th level.

You're missing the fact that hit points don't only represent actual physical damage. It will sounds stupid (well, I think it is), especially watching it in the movie, but, in D&D terms, Boromir was loosing hit points during the whole encounter (even being not hit by any of the orcs). The arrows that actually hit were only the final points he had and thus, he died.

 

[Numion]

The Balrog could be dealt with in such a fashion because the Balrog had already broken the rule and had done so during the First Age, which means that dealing with it wasn't bound by the restrictions of later ages. Mithrandir could act more freely. Now, given that the Balrog was powerful enough to single-handedly destroy the most powerful Dwarven nation that had ever existed, that would mean that Gandalf should be on the order of a deity when it comes to powers.

You probably have canon sources for the reasons of Gandalf behaviour, that he had muscle but wasn't allowed to 'flex it'. From outside LotR, no? Because LotR is IMO a better book if you forget that and just take it as you see it: Gandalf wasn't held back, he actually did everything in his capability and it was barely enough ..

not that he could've done everything single-handedly but just couldn't be arsed to do it. That notion kinda takes the point away from the books .. all that hardship and suffering just because one stuck to some 'rules' that aren't going to matter anyway in the 4th time (if Sauron won there's nobody to abide the rules, if not, there's no need for them).

And your information also raises questions about Saruman. He was Gandalfs caliber, wasn't he? Didn't seem deity-like in the books ..

 

[Numion]

You're missing the fact that hit points don't only represent actual physical damage. It will sounds stupid (well, I think it is), especially watching it in the movie, but, in D&D terms, Boromir was loosing hit points during the whole encounter (even being not hit by any of the orcs). The arrows that actually hit were only the final points he had and thus, he died.

But wasn't that about the first time he came into contact with the enemy? He fought for a while, but it didn't seem like the orcs had any strikes at him..

 

[Evilhalfling]

Here is the list of gandalf's spells for hobbit and Fellowship
Some of which may be from the elven Ring of Fire
The Hobbit

Dispel Magic/ Darkness - goblin hall
Pyrotechnics - Goblin Hall
Light/ Contiual Light - gollums caves
Produce Flame - Fighting with Worgs
? - calling eagles for rescue

Good Fighting skills -
Hide skill - trolls/goblin caves

Fellowship
This book I have, so I will reread where I remeber him using spells
Opening the door to Moria - "Many times he [Gandalf] repeated these words in different order, or varied them, then he tried other spells, one after another... "
From the movie I thought he tried 3 opening spells - Knock, Dispel magic and Open/close, but this is only an approximation.
He also put a shutting spell on a door - quickly broken by the balrog
Protection from evil seems the closest to his first move against the balrog
then he breaks his staff, and the bridge with it.
Two Towers
Gandalf refers to being burned by the balrog, and frozen by the water they plunged into, but refers to the battle of the peak as it would be seen by a distant observer, a storm with lighting, thunder, tounges of fire and ice falling like rain.
He uses suggestions to stop Legolas and Gimli from attacking him - or spoken spells that compel obediance. He uses the same power against Saruman, and breaks his Saruman's staff with a word.

He survives this fall, but does not jump from saruman's tower. If he used magic it is inconsitant.
He also sends word through an animal to the eagles - speak w/animal? animal messenger? you can fill in a minor inconsitancy by saying he did the same thing in the hobbit, it just wasn't recorded.


This variety of spells and the low level in general seems to indicate a druid/sorcerer. As a Ishtari he is not human, he is instead a spirit of power, of the same order as a balrog. This would indicate outsider status - and this may be where his fighting skills and skill points come from, and huge HP total.
BAB = outsider HD, and skills = 8+int mod x (outsider HD +3)
Both Gandalf the white and Saruman can compel by giving spoken commands. I would guess this is a racial ablity of the Ishtari.
A huge ECL also explains why he has so few levels in spellcasting classes.

Can anyone point out a spell of higher than 3rd level that gandalf casts?

 

[Ron]

But wasn't that about the first time he came into contact with the enemy? He fought for a while, but it didn't seem like the orcs had any strikes at him..

You're right, but the silliness of the D&D hit point system is that you don't need an actual strike to loose hit points. A well done dodge in D&D would be represented as a hit point loss. Check the rules.

 

[Darmanicus]

He was killed by, what, 3 arrows? Thats like 20-30 hp, which makes him about 2-4th level.

Or maybe it was 3 critical arrow hits which could quite easliy bump that up to 100+ damage and around 10th level.

 

[Numion]

Or maybe it was 3 critical arrow hits which could quite easliy bump that up to 100+ damage and around 10th level.

Is there a reason to assume that that very unlikely series of events took place?

I wasn't really a fan of the Merp game, one reason was that the LotR characters were pumped to insane power levels. In the end Gandalf was sitting in a tree throwing burning cones at wolves, and that can't be disputed. Yep, thats a demigod level material if there ever was.

Again: the books are much better if read as written. Things were pretty desperate, and not some sideshow for a 60th level Gandalf.