Static.

[Dandu]

Well, you might want to put points in Spot and Listen. Also, listing his AC, saves, and HP would be nice.

Now, my list of CR 13 monsters that a build should be able to contribute against are:

12 Headed Pyrohydra
Ice Devil
Storm Giant
Iron Golem
Celestial Charger
Ghaele

 

[xigbar]

Well, you might want to put points in Spot and Listen. Also, listing his AC, saves, and HP would be nice.

Now, my list of CR 13 monsters that a build should be able to contribute against are:

12 Headed Pyrohydra
Ice Devil
Storm Giant
Iron Golem
Celestial Charger
Ghaele

AC:28 Normal, 24 Touch, 19 Flat Footed.
88Hp. I did put ranks in those.
He could contribute in a four man team against those, minus the Storm Giant and Ghaele, but against anything that can take electricity damage, it can do a good deal of harm, in my opinion. If I win init. against the Charger, I can hit before he uses Air Walk, Pyrohydras can take damage, and if I hit hard enough, the rest of my team can take it out before it heals it's health. The Ice Devil isn't too bad, same for the Golem.

 

[Dandu]

The pyrphydra, on a full attack at +17 per attack (+2 of charging) hits on an 11 or higher vs normal AC (9 or higher if charging). 12 attacks at 2d8+6 per attack (15 damage each, on average) is 180 damage. A 45% hit rate deals 81 damage. On a charge, it has a 55% hit rate dealing 99 damage.

IN order to hit the hydra, the monk has to move through threatened squares, provoking an AoO from all of the Hydra's heads.

I do not think the hydra belongs on the list of things the monk can face in melee.

Yeah, if you hit it hard enough, you can deal 2d6+2+5d6 damage, average of 26.5 points, but that's 20.5% of the hydra's HP, and the other 3 members of the standard party to deal with it in one round before the monk gets ripped to shreds. This means they'll be taking down 26.5% of the hydra's HP each, assuming everyone contributes equally, which would imply that the monk is actually behind the damage curve.

As for the Ice Devil, it flies, teleports, can cast Ice Storm and Ice Wall, and has Persistent Image, all as at-will abilities. How is the monk engaging it?

 

[xigbar]

The pyrphydra, on a full attack at +17 per attack (+2 of charging) hits on an 11 or higher vs normal AC (9 or higher if charging). 12 attacks at 2d8+6 per attack (15 damage each, on average) is 180 damage. A 45% hit rate deals 81 damage. On a charge, it has a 55% hit rate dealing 99 damage.

IN order to hit the hydra, the monk has to move through threatened squares, provoking an AoO from all of the Hydra's heads.

I do not think the hydra belongs on the list of things the monk can face in melee.

Yeah, if you hit it hard enough, you can deal 2d6+2+5d6 damage, average of 26.5 points, but that's 20.5% of the hydra's HP, and the other 3 members of the standard party to deal with it in one round before the monk gets ripped to shreds. This means they'll be taking down 26.5% of the hydra's HP each, assuming everyone contributes equally, which would imply that the monk is actually behind the damage curve.

As for the Ice Devil, it flies, teleports, can cast Ice Storm and Ice Wall, and has Persistent Image, all as at-will abilities. How is the monk engaging it?

At high levels, creatures can take on similarly leveled creatures by winning initiative. Sure, if the Ice Devil wins Init., I'm screwed. If I win Init., and hit him with TWF, he takes about 53 damage, according to the numbers provided by in your post. Same goes for the PyroHydra. And then, the rest of my group isn't having to do 26.5% of it's health every round. Also, keep in mind that this build only uses Core. It's not optimized, true, but it can move far, and hit for 35d6+14 on a full attack. It's certainly not god awful.

 

[Dandu]

You're not hitting with TWF if you move up to attack. You get one single attack. After provoking an AoO from a creature who can attack with all 12 heads on a standard action or AoO. And can take AoOs when flatfooted.

As for the Ice Devil, you'd have to win init, then move into the air and hit him. This is only going to give you a single attack. Given that the Ice Devil has 147 HP (more than the Pyrohydra!) the monk is going to rely on his team to save his behind. Again.

Also, keep in mind that this build only uses Core.

So are the monsters.

 

[xigbar]

You're not hitting with TWF if you move up to attack. You get one single attack. After provoking an AoO from a creature who can attack with all 12 heads on a standard action or AoO. And can take AoOs when flatfooted.

As for the Ice Devil, you'd have to win init, then move into the air and hit him. This is only going to give you a single attack. Given that the Ice Devil has 147 HP (more than the Pyrohydra!) the monk is going to rely on his team to save his behind. Again.

Okay. This is all assuming the party is only a factor after I run in. We don't even know who is in the party. A 13th level monk wouldn't solo a CR 13 creature. Maybe a Cr 9 or 10, an 11 at best, but not a 13. What if my party Cleric has given me persisted righteous might, and the wizard has given me Greater Mage Armor? And why would I have to get to the air to the hit the Ice Demon? It doesn't have a fly speed. I grant you the Pyrohydra though.

 

[Dandu]

Okay. This is all assuming the party is only a factor after I run in. We don't even know who is in the party. A 13th level monk wouldn't solo a CR 13 creature. Maybe a Cr 9 or 10, an 11 at best, but not a 13.

A 12 headed Hyra is a CR 11 encounter. The only difference between it and the Pyrohydra is that the latter has a breath weapon. Since the breath weapon was never used in the example combat, the monk was effectively facing off against a CR 11 encounter.

What if my party Cleric has given me persisted righteous might

Ranger: Personal

Enlarge Person would be better, except that it lowers your AC to the point where it would kill you vs the Hydra.

and the wizard has given me Greater Mage Armor?

Non-core. Also, not really an example of how the gauntlets are overpowered.

And why would I have to get to the air to the hit the Ice Demon? It doesn't have a fly speed.

Spell-Like Abilities

At will—cone of cold (DC 20), fly, ice storm (DC 19), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), persistent image (DC 20), unholy aura (DC 23), wall of ice (DC 19). Caster level 13th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

 

[xigbar]

A 12 headed Hyra is a CR 11 encounter. The only difference between it and the Pyrohyra is that the latter has a breath weapon. Since the breath weapon was never used in the example combat, the monk was effectively facing off against a CR 11 encounter.


Ranger: Personal

Enlarge Person would be better, except that it lowers your AC to the point where it would kill you vs the Hydra.

Non-core. Also, not really an example of how the gauntlets are overpowered.


Spell-Like Abilities

At will—cone of cold (DC 20), fly, ice storm (DC 19), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), persistent image (DC 20), unholy aura (DC 23), wall of ice (DC 19). Caster level 13th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

The hydra is often considered to be poorly CRed, but I get your point. And your right, I don't have any of my books with me, so I forgot the range. And neither are your example. They're examples of why the monk is underpowered, if we applied them to, say a Warblade, who has better health, and has maneuvers to help him, they could take on the encounters with some what greater efficiency. As for the SLA, with the exception of a surprise round, I grant you that.

 

[Dandu]

There's nothing stopping an Ice Devil from having Fly up constantly since it's at will.

This isn't the best way to test items as a lot of the challenges are traditionally hard on melee (although if the monk did manage to really trash one, that would say something!) but we could also compare it to what other melee characters could do.

At this point, I notice you saying it does 35d6 + 14 on a full attack, which is a little much considering that the Shocking Grasp spell only works once per round. If you're going to make it per-discharge, you need to up the price considerably.

 

[xigbar]

There's nothing stopping an Ice Devil from having Fly up constantly since it's at will.

This isn't the best way to test items as a lot of the challenges are traditionally hard on melee (although if the monk did manage to really trash one, that would say something!) but we could also compare it to what other melee characters could do.

At this point, I notice you saying it does 35d6 + 14 on a full attack, which is a little much considering that the Shocking Grasp spell only works once per round. If you're going to make it per-discharge, you need to up the price considerably.

1) That's a typo, I was thinking of when I have 7 attacks in a full attack with GTWF. At 13th, I would get 5. Also, Shocking Grasp runs around the gauntlets as a continuous effect. On a side note, a permancied shocking grasp to make an electric fence?