Stealing The Nish

[Water Bob]

Am I reading the Delay option correctly? By giving up an entire round, a character can take the nish (be top initiative) on the following round?

Pg: 160, 3.5E PHB. If a player comes to his next action and has not yet performed an action, he does not get to take a delayed action in the next round, though he can delay again. If he takes a delayed action in the next round, before his regular turn comes up, his initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle and he does not get his regular action that round.



If I'm reading that correctly, Conan is supposed to go on 7 during the first round. At his action (7), his player announces that Conan is delaying.

Now, the combat finishes with all the other actors in the round and Conan still hasn't gone. He basically loses his action this round, and we go into the next round. The first actor in the second round acts on 2, the second one acts on 4, the third one on 6, and Conan should go on 7, but, inestead, he decides to go 3, so that now, Conan is second to act in the round.

Or, Conan could decide to go on 1, which becomes his new nish count, and he all of a sudden has initiative over everyone else.

Is this correct and how you read the rule?

 

[Nagol]

Other than initiaitive goes in descending order, yes.

In that example, Conan decides to use the action he has been delaying. As he acts, he resets his initiative count to the tick that decided to act on.

 

[Sekhmet]

Initiative DOES go in descending order, so Conan would have been 1st anyway in that example.
However, this is the absolute same as "Readying an Action". On your turn you ready an action to be performed whenever you desire it to be; first, last, next to last, fourth to last, whatever.
This only applies to your next action, and after that round, you're back to your original initiative.

It is useful for interrupting spell casters, or running down a fleeing opponent.

 

[Empirate]

Delaying can be a valuable option, for example:

a) your rogue waits until his ally grants him a flanking position on the enemy;
b) your save-or-die caster waits until the enemy has been hit by a no-save debuff from your teammate, the Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny;
c) your pouncing barbarian waits until the enemy has moved close enough for a charge;
d) etc.

Giving up the right to go first can pay off, you see!

 

[Water Bob]

It just seems like it takes the oomph out of having initiative if I can simply give up one round's worth of actions to have the highest initiatiave next round.

And, what exactly does this mean: he does not get to take a delayed action in the next round, though he can delay again.

 

[Sekhmet]

I think you're confusing yourself. Think about it like this.

Combat Order is this: Conan, Orc, Gandalf, Tasslehoff, Ogre.
Round 1:
Conan charges and kills Orc!
Gandalf puts on his robe and wizard hat!

Tasslehoff wants to flank the enemy Ogre so that he can Sneak Attack it with his next attack, but Conan is too far away to get a flanking bonus with, so he can't.
He decides to wait until Conan has moved into range of the Ogre, so he can flank it, but Conan has already used his action this round to fell an Orc, so Tass must wait until the next round for Conan to move.

Ogre closes in on Conan and Ogre bashes Conan, ending the combat round.

Round 2:
Conan closes in on Ogre (who had Reach before) and attacks!
Using his delayed action, Tass flanks Ogre.
Gandalf casts Magic Missile at the darkness!
Tasslehoff Sneak Attacks Ogre.

Ogre bashes Conan, ending the combat round.

Round 3:
Conan smashes Ogre.
Ogre dies.

----------

The correct question is "What exactly does THIS mean: "If a player comes to his next action and has not yet performed an action, he does not get to take a delayed action in the next round, though he can delay again."

Assume the combat order of the last example had been: Gandalf, Conan, Tasslehoff, Ogre.

When Tasslehoff delayed his action until Conan had his chance to go in Round 2, his delayed turn would have happened at the same time as his regular turn, so he loses the delayed action, and combat continues as if he had just sat around twiddling his thumbs for a round.

He then takes his regular turn as if no delaying had occurred.

 

[Water Bob]

Round 2:
Conan closes in on Ogre (who had Reach before) and attacks!
Using his delayed action, Tass flanks Ogre.
Gandalf casts Magic Missile at the darkness!
Tasslehoff Sneak Attacks Ogre.

This doesn't look right, according to the rule.

The rule says: If he takes a delayed action in the next round, before his regular turn comes up (and that's what Tass is doing here--he started the delay in Round 1 but is actually taking it in Round 2), his initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle (so now, the Combat Order has changed to: Conan, Tasselehoff, Gandalf, Ogre) and he does not get his regular action that round (So, Tasselehoff should not get the sneak attack mentioned above--unless he can perform it during the time he moves in for the sneak attack early in the round before Gandalf acts. He no longer gets to act at his old nish number).

At least, that's how I'm reading it.


The important part to note here is that Tass had no action in Round 1, but completely delayed until Round 2 and changed his initiative count to be second to act in the round instead of second-to-last, and there's not much stopping him from changing his nish roll act 1st in succeeding rounds.

 

[Empirate]

Yes. What exactly bothers you here? The fact that you can change your initiative count to the highest, or the need to give up a round of actions to do that?

 

[Water Bob]

Yes. What exactly bothers you here? The fact that you can change your initiative count to the highest, or the need to give up a round of actions to do that?

Yes, because it makes rolling for initiative rather moot. Skip an action, and you're the first to act in any round f rfgor the rest of the combat.



EDIT: For example, why take the Improved Initiative Feat when someone can just skip a six second round and easily go before you?

 

[Sekhmet]

Regardless of how the semantics of the situation work out, initiative is -almost- meaningless when you consider the amount of ways to alter it; it is merely a game tool to help ease the flow of combat.

The real difference between Conan, Gandalf, Tass, Ogre and Ogre, Conan, Gandalf, Tass is that there is no real difference.

If you look at it as flowing, instead of round by round, the first combat order is C - G - T - O - C - G - T - O.
The second combat order is O - C - G - T - O - C - G - T.

Moving one player makes no real difference except in very circumstantial moments, and throwing one turn out (especially in the beginning of combat) to insert yourself into the most advantageous position is more than likely less helpful than taking the turn to begin with.