Stealing The Nish

[BENINHB]

Yes, because it makes rolling for initiative rather moot. Skip an action, and you're the first to act in any round f rfgor the rest of the combat.



EDIT: For example, why take the Improved Initiative Feat when someone can just skip a six second round and easily go before you?

But you are losing a round worth of actions for nothing. Besides the very first round initiative doesn't really matter, it is just the order people act.

What do you think the benefit is of giving up your turn in the first round to act first in the second round?? It is pretty much the same as going last in the first round... only worse.

 

[Water Bob]

Looks like I'm in the minority here, but I still think I'm correct in thinking that initiative does matter quite a bit, throughout the fight.

Here's one reason why:

Two 6th level Fighters go at it for 5 rounds.

If the one with nish kills the other in any of the combat rounds, he'll receive all of his attacks, two per round. But the target killed will always have two attacks less than his opponent.

OTOH, if the fighter without nish kills his opponent who has nish, then both fighters get an equal number of attacks.

Mathmatically, the fighter with nish has a number of attacks equal to greater than his opponent when he dies.

The flip side of this is that the fighter without nish always has a number of attacks equal to or less than his opponent.

Nish counts.





EDIT: Two equally matched 6th level fighters are about to go into melee. Which one would you bet on? The one that will get exactly the same or two more attacks? Or, would you bet on the one that gets exactly the same or two less attacks?

Obviously, you'd bet on the former, which means, all other things equal (two duplicate 6th level fighters), that having initiative is an advantage.

 

[Water Bob]

What do you think the benefit is of giving up your turn in the first round to act first in the second round?? It is pretty much the same as going last in the first round... only worse.

True, if we're only talking about two rounds.

But, if we're talking about 5, 6, 7, or 8 rounds, we're talking about giving up one round to be first all remaining rounds.

 

[arcseed]

Water Bob, you're counting wrong. Let's take your example of the two fighters. Let's say the one who won initiative kills the other in the fifth round.

Round 1: both get one full attack
Round 2: both get one full attack
Round 3: both get one full attack
Round 4: both get one full attack
Round 5: fighter one gets his full attack, the other dies.

Fighter 1, 5 full attacks. Fighter 2, 4 full attacks.

Now let's say fighter two delays to get initiative.

Round 1: Fighter one gets his full attack, fighter 2 delays.
Round 2: Fighter two gets his full attack, then fighter one gets his.
Round 3: Fighter two gets his full attack, then fighter one gets his.
Round 4: Fighter two gets his full attack, then fighter one gets his.
Round 5: Fighter two gets his full attack, then fighter one gets his. (fighter 2 dies)

Fighter 1, 5 full attacks. Fighter 2, 4 full attacks. The two cases are functionally the same-- Fighter one gets his one extra attack from winning initiative initially.

The one (minor) difference between the two cases involves extra combatants being drawn into the fight, and potentially being flat-footed to the delayed fighter, but this is a fairly rare case, IME.

 

[Water Bob]

Water Bob, you're counting wrong. Let's take your example of the two fighters. Let's say the one who won initiative kills the other in the fifth round.

Round 1: both get one full attack
Round 2: both get one full attack
Round 3: both get one full attack
Round 4: both get one full attack
Round 5: fighter one gets his full attack, the other dies.

Fighter 1, 5 full attacks. Fighter 2, 4 full attacks..

I was addressing the point that several posters above made saying that nish means nothing after the first round or two. I wasn't speaking to the Delay action. My counting is correct.

To address the Delay action, as you have here, let's keep the character that will Delay out of melee until his delay brings him to act. That would make nish meaning less since it is possible. As I said earlier, allowing a character to do that diminishes the advantage of having nish.

 

[DumbPaladin]

Looks like I'm in the minority here, but I still think I'm correct

That much has become clear. There have been a lot of good points made, and you're free to ignore all of them ... but does there really need to be 24 posts on a discussion in which there's not any chance at all that you would ever change your opinion?

The point of this thread seems to have been, "I feel X, and I will shoot down any theories that say otherwise."

Let's agree we disagree and move on.

 

[Water Bob]

The point of this thread seems to have been, "I feel X, and I will shoot down any theories that say otherwise."

Can my opinion be changed? Sure. I'm open minded about it. The reason it hasn't been changed is that no one has said anything worthy of changing it.

I mean, my example about the two equal 6th fighters is pretty clear.

You're telling me it doesn't matter which to bet on, and I say bet on the one that will get equal or more attacks. In the long run, he'll win more fights than his counterpart that gets equal or less attacks.

Initiative counts.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Can my opinion be changed? Sure. I'm open minded about it. The reason it hasn't been changed is that no one has said anything worthy of changing it.

arcseed used your own hypothetical to prove why you're wrong.

I mean, my example about the two equal 6th fighters is pretty clear.

Yes, it makes it pretty clear that it doesn't matter who has a higher "nish" after Round 1.

You're telling me it doesn't matter which to bet on, and I say bet on the one that will get equal or more attacks. In the long run, he'll win more fights than his counterpart that gets equal or less attacks.

Initiative counts.

Yes, but only for the first round. Fighter 1 wins regardless of whether Fighter 2 delays or not because Fighter 1 won initiative on the first round.

Can you really not see this?

 

[Water Bob]

arcseed used your own hypothetical to prove why you're wrong.

No, he combined two issues. Issue #1 is about the Delay action. Issue #2 is the question of whether nish is important after round one.

Yes, it makes it pretty clear that it doesn't matter who has a higher "nish" after Round 1.

It's obviously important during round 1 because of the flatfooted condition.

But, how can you not see that it's also important in round 5, or round 6, or any other round, when, those with nish, can make others react to them, and that those with nish will get the same or more attacks than their opponents.

Yes, but only for the first round. Fighter 1 wins regardless of whether Fighter 2 delays or not because Fighter 1 won initiative on the first round.

Forget the Delay. Just focus on nish--or Issue #2--which is: Nish is still important in any combat round, not just the first.

Once you can see that, we can discuss the Delay.

 

[Water Bob]

No, he combined two issues. Issue #1 is about the Delay action. Issue #2 is the question of whether nish is important after round one.



It's obviously important during round 1 because of the flatfooted condition.

But, how can you not see that it's also important in round 5, or round 6, or any other round, when, those with nish, can make others react to them, and that those with nish will get the same or more attacks than their opponents.




Forget the Delay. Just focus on nish--or Issue #2--which is: Nish is still important in any combat round, not just the first.

Once you can see that, we can discuss the Delay.

EDIT:

Hypothetically, if you took a large sum of money (doesn't matter how much--just pick a number that is important to you, $10, $100, $1000, $10,000, whatever) and bet it on one of two identical 6th level fighters, governed by a fair GM. Both start the combat alert and not flatfooted.

Who would you bet on? The one with nish or the one without?