Stealing The Nish

[Water Bob]

Regardless of how the semantics of the situation work out, initiative is -almost- meaningless when you consider the amount of ways to alter it; it is merely a game tool to help ease the flow of combat.

I have to disagree with you there. If I asked the Orc that Conan took out in your example, he'd say that initiative had a huge impact on him. He was killed before he was able to act.

So, I maintain that having the inititiave in a fight is having an advantage. And many times, giving up nish is giving up that advantage.

 

[Sekhmet]

I have to disagree with you there. If I asked the Orc that Conan took out in your example, he'd say that initiative had a huge impact on him. He was killed before he was able to act.

So, I maintain that having the inititiave in a fight is having an advantage. And many times, giving up nish is giving up that advantage.

You'd also note that I said giving up your first initiative to act first later would be disadvantageous in most cases.

Assume Conan wanted to act after Gandalf, so Gandalf could get off his wand and cast Bull's Strength on Conan.

That gives the Orc the opportunity to act where he would normally be dead.


So, you see, the last line of my previous post defeats the purpose of your post.

throwing one turn out (especially in the beginning of combat) to insert yourself into the most advantageous position is more than likely less helpful than taking the turn to begin with.

The first turn's initiative is what really matters, the ability to act first in an encounter is advantageous. The ability to act first in the second round is less advantageous, as damage / control of the field will have already begun to happen. Acting first in the third round is less advantageous than acting first in the second round, because you're just starting to mop up the remains.
Acting first in any round beyond the third is inconsequential. The skill of the individual player for more than makes up for acting 17th rather than 19th.

 

[Vegepygmy]

EDIT: For example, why take the Improved Initiative Feat when someone can just skip a six second round and easily go before you?

If I act first on Round 1, and you skip your turn on Round 1 so you can act before me on Round 2...who actually got to go first?

That's why you take the Improved Initiative feat; because there's no effective difference between

Round 1: I go, you skip your turn
Round 2: You go, then I go
Round 3: You go...

and

Round 1: I go, then you go
Round 2: I go, then you go...

 

[Water Bob]

If I act first on Round 1, and you skip your turn on Round 1 so you can act before me on Round 2...who actually got to go first?

That's why you take the Improved Initiative feat; because there's no effective difference between

Round 1: I go, you skip your turn
Round 2: You go, then I go
Round 3: You go...

and

Round 1: I go, then you go
Round 2: I go, then you go...

You're assuming that the character delaying was engaged. What if he wasn't? Like Tass in the example by another poster above. The bad guys were the Orc and the Ogre. The goodguys outnumbered 'em, so Tass didn't need to be engaged. Therefore, he could skip actions one round and always have nish over you in later rounds.

 

[Sekhmet]

He's still giving up his chance to act in the first combat round (the most important round in most encounters) so that he can act in the second round.

You should try looking at this without seeing the round identifier.

Conan reacts at 1 second, Tass reacts at 2 seconds, Gandalf reacts at 5 seconds, and Ogre reacts at 6 seconds.
Tass intentionally waits until the 7th second so get the drop on the Ogre, who wouldn't be paying as much attention to the little kender.

Since a combat round is 6 seconds, Tass and Conan would be acting simultaneously , instead of Tass acting 1 second behind Conan.
To achieve that, Tass waited for 5 seconds before his first action. He, just like every other character/monster involved, acts every 6 seconds.


Initiative only REALLY matters on the initial (see how similar those words are?) round, when people have the chance to act before anyone else has acted in that encounter.

Subduing, killing, or otherwise removing enemies from combat before combat has a chance to really begin is a major asset.

In an encounter with 5 Orcs and Gandalf, if the Orcs go first, Gandalf gets surrounded while sitting on his wand.
If Gandalf goes first, he Sleeps the Orcs, so he can put on his robe and wizard hat.

In either case, the Orcs will never act more times than Gandalf gets to act, so the order of the following rounds is largely superfluous.

 

[Water Bob]

He's still giving up his chance to act in the first combat round (the most important round in most encounters) so that he can act in the second round.

(snip)

Initiative only REALLY matters on the initial (see how similar those words are?) round, when people have the chance to act before anyone else has acted in that encounter.

That's just not true. Initiative is thrown one time and lasts the entire combat. That means, if you have initiative, you get to go first every round and others must react to you.

And, that makes initiative a powerful combat tool in the game.

 

[Herzog]

There's no real value in going first in anything but the first round.

Look at it like this:

Let's say I'm LAST in initiative order.
After everyone else has acted, I declare I'm going to delay.

I actually delay until the next round, but before anyone else has acted, I declare I changed my mind, and am going to act anyway (I take my delayed action)

So, now I have the highest initiative, and get to act first in the second round.


However, no real change in initiative order has occurred. I still get to act once a round after the same person who had initiative slightly higher than me, and before the one who has/had the highest initiative.

In the first round, initiative order determines who gets to act first, and who is still flat-footed at that moment.
In all subsequent rounds, initiative only determines the ORDER in which everyone acts.

 

[DumbPaladin]

There's no real value in going first in anything but the first round.

This is correct.

The answer to your original question is "Yes, you can."

Initiative doesn't really matter, except if you absolutely need to go before other people (including the bad guys).

 

[Sekhmet]

That's just not true. Initiative is thrown one time and lasts the entire combat. That means, if you have initiative, you get to go first every round and others must react to you.

And, that makes initiative a powerful combat tool in the game.

The difference between going last and going first is meaningless after the first round or two.

In the order Conan, Tass, Gandalf, Ogre; if the Ogre decides to wait 1 second (acting at 7 seconds instead of 6 seconds), no REAL change has occurred. He still goes after Gandalf, and he still goes before Conan.
Only on the first round, before anyone has had a chance to react, does it matter if you go first or second. That is the difference between getting caught Flat-Footed or otherwise unaware. Once combat has been initiated on both sides, everyone acts once every six seconds.

 

[Empirate]

The difference between going last and going first is meaningless after the first round or two.

Only on the first round, before anyone has had a chance to react, does it matter if you go first or second. That is the difference between getting caught Flat-Footed or otherwise unaware. Once combat has been initiated on both sides, everyone acts once every six seconds.

Bolded part is bollocks; totally agree with the rest, and I think you actually don't mean those two words.

OP, stop thinking in rounds of combat. Start thinking in turns. A turn is when a character gets to act. The separation between combat rounds (i.e., the timespan in which everybody gets a turn) is artificial and meaningless for all practical concerns.

Turned another way: yeah, you can give up your turn in round one to get the highest initiative in round two. So what does your high initiative buy you that's worth losing a whole turn for? Most of the time, the answer is simple like "I can now sneak attack that guy", or "well, nothing really". In any case, your high initiative won't buy you much in the third round of combat - coz you'll have to wait everybody else's turns before that comes around!