Stealing The Nish

Let me play Devil's Advocate with you and say, "What about the guy who went fourth (of five actors) in Round 2 who is now going first in Round 3. Can you see how those in Round 3 are not reacting to he who went last in Round 2 but to the dude before him?"

If someone went 4th in round 2 then he is only going 1st in round 3 if everyone ahead of him delayed.

If he wants to delay to go first, he won't get an action until round 4 after all other actors take an action. He didn't gain placement -- he lost it. Instead of 4 others going before him, 5 did.

Look at the comparison of action below the top row is the order of actions if eveyone continues their turn normally.

The bottom actions reflect the D delaying to go first the next round. What has be gained? Bragging rights. What did he sacrifice? E get a second turn prior to D's second turn.

Compared to everone else, D gets 1 less action over 5 rounds. A, B, C have the same number of actions ahead of D and E shifts so that his action is resolved before D in round 2.

Code:
A B C D E | A B C D E  | A B C D E  | A B C D E  | A B C D E 

A B C D E | A B C E    | D A B C E  | D A B C E  | D A B C E
 

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Pretty Simple

If you can do something useful in round 1, then you should do it and gain the advantage of not having wasted / skipped your turn.

If you cannot do something useful in round 1, then it is likely advantageous to delay and gain the nish in rounds 2 and after.


If you cannot do anything useful in rounds 2 or later, you should roll up a new character after consulting with this board on your build.
 

After writing all of this, I'm going to preface this by apologizing for the long post.

Water Bob, I'm going to try to clarify this if I can. If you feel anything I write is incorrect, feel free to let me know. This is a discussion board, and I'm just trying to help.

The argument presented to you is that going first on initiative is indeed very advantageous, and that delaying has many potential advantages. It goes on to state, however, that there is no inherent advantage to going first on initiative other than on the first round. Please not that I did use the qualifier "inherent."

I'd like to take your example of two evenly matches warriors. I would indeed bet on the person who went first, as they're going to have the advantage, and with equal luck, and if both character simply full attack, then the character that wins initiative should win. However, that's due to going first in the first round, as I'm going to attempt to demonstrate.

The first warrior (Tom) is going to fight the second warrior (Ben). Tom goes first on initiative.

Both only get 1 attack per turn in this example. They will have multiple later on.
1) Tom attacks Ben once. Ben attacks Tom once. They have each attacked once. --> round 2.
2) Tom attacks Ben once. Ben attacks Tom once. They have each attacked twice. --> round 3.
3) Tom attacks Ben once. Ben attacks Tom once. They have each attacked three times. --> round 4.
4) Tom attacks and drops Ben. Tom attacked four times, while Ben only attacked three times. Combat is resolved.
Order of initiative (Tom [T], Ben ): T, B, T, B, T, B, T.

If Ben delayed, it would look like this:
1) Tom attacks Ben once. Ben delays to gain first initiative. Tom has attacked once, and Ben has not attacked. --> round 2.
2) Ben attacks Tom once. Tom attacks Ben once. Tom has attacked twice, and Ben has attacked once. --> round 3.
3) Ben attacks Tom once. Tom attacks Ben once. Tom has attacked three times, and Ben has attacked twice. --> round 4.
4) Ben attacks Tom once. Tom attacks Ben once, and drops Ben. Tom has attacked four times, and Ben has attacked three times. Combat is resolved.
Order of initiative (Tom [T], Ben ): T, B, T, B, T, B, T.

In both examples, Tom gets to attack 4 times, and Ben only gets to attack 3 times. The reason that this happens is because Tom won initiative in the first round. If we look at the order of turns in combat, it looks identical, doesn't it? That means that given equal warriors with equal actions and equal luck, then whoever wins in the first round will win, and holding the highest initiative does not matter in a one-on-one fight.

If we expand this to two or more attacks each, the numbers simply double.
Tom hits Ben twice. Ben hits Tom twice. (Two attacks each)
Repeat. (Four attacks each)
Repeat. (Six attacks each)
Tom hits Ben twice, and drops Ben. (Tom attacked eight times, Ben attacked six times) Combat is resolved.

The numbers are simply doubled. If they had three attacked, they would be tripled. If they were each fighting with two weapons, you would adjust the multiplier to fit the new number of attacks.

Now, in a combat situation with three or more people, delaying will give quite a big benefit, potentially, though this is always situational. The reason for that is that rather than reacting to the highest initiative (as you've implied is the case), creatures react to whatever happened between their last turn and this turn.

This goes back to combat order. In a combat scenario with only two combatants, since you are solely reacting to one another, combat order never needs to change. It goes as follows: T, B, T, B, T, B, T. If Ben won initiative in the first round, then he would win the fight (all things being equal). That being the case, just swap the order of combat, and you'll see that delaying to hold subsequent combat rounds makes no difference.

If we take three combatants, this all potentially changes. Add Kenny to the mix. In fact, make it a three-way combat, where everyone involved wants everyone else dead. If Kenny (as the newest addition) had the lowest initiative, combat rounds would look like this: T, B, K, T, B, K, T, B, K, etc.

Now, with three people involved, there is potentially a lot of ways the fight can change. If Kenny (last on initiative) see Tom and Ben trading blows, he can simply delay each round until one of them is dead, and then attack the survivor. This makes perfect sense, and this shows the direct benefit to delaying in certain scenarios. If, however, Tom attacked Kenny in the first round, Ben could decide to delay, and see if Kenny trades blows with Ben. If that's the case, then Ben will just watch the fight, delaying multiple turns, and then attack the winner.

This speaks more to the order of combat (T, B, K, T, B, K, T, B, K, etc.) than who has the highest initiative in any round except the first.

I apologize for the excessively long post. I hope what I said is clear. If not, you can ask for clarification, and I'll do my best to post nothing beyond a few hundred characters. Have a nice day.
 

What are these advantages? (Snipety)

I don't think you can.

Answer this question: If you are low in hit points, and you are fighting--with one of your allies--a big, nasty Ogre who could possibly kill you in one blow, at which point in the Order of Battle would you like to be? First? Second? Or, last?

Once you answer that, I'll show you the example.
 
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I still don't understand the question

Why would you skip an action in order to have your action go first later on?

The only possible (correct) answer is that the action you are skipping was worthless or not worth much.

In other words, if you can do something effective, do it. If not, consider delaying in order to grab initiative in later rounds.

If you have something effective to do now, you are always giving up more than you gain by delaying. It's that simple.

It's like saying, I'll give up my draft choice in the first round in order to draft first in the second round. That would just be lame.
 

Answer this question: If you are low in hit points, and you are fighting--with one of your allies--a big, nasty Ogre who could possibly kill you in one blow, at which point in the Order of Battle would you like to be? First? Second? Or, last?

Once you answer that, I'll show you the example.

Okay, lets use this example. Order of battle is Conan, Ogre, Tass.

Ogre strikes Conan, Conan is reduced to 5 hit points.

The order is now Tass, Conan, Ogre. Ogre just took his turn, so Tass and Conan have time to react to Conan being dropped to 5 hitpoints.

It does not matter if the Ogre's initiative put him before Conan/after Tass, what matter is that Conan and Tass are always REACTIVELY acting to Ogre, regardless of the initiative.
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What I, and every other poster in this thread have been saying since the first post, is that after initiative is set in round 1, it does not matter if initiative changes for the following rounds, as everyone is reacting to the person before them in the order of battle.

Winning initiative on round 1 is advantageous throughout the entire combat, but acting first in round 2-NaN is much less important than acting first in round 1.

You are the only person arguing against that; and in all of your examples, you have only further and further solidified that you agree with us in practice.

In the Fighter6 vs Fighter6 argument, the person who wins initiative in round 1 wins because he acted first in that combat, and therefor has a chance to make more attacks than his opponent.
However, if Fighter 2 delays his action to go right before Fighter 1, the order of battle does not change, nor does it have any effect on Fighter 1 having already scored a hit, and therefor Fighter 1 will still have more attacks in that combat than Fighter 2.

------------

You've brought up the example of characters that have not been engaged in combat being able to set their initiative where they want it to be.

Page 22 of the 3.5 DMG states
DMG said:
"When only one side is aware of the other, the DM runs the first
round of combat as a surprise round. In this round, each character
gets only a standard action. Only those aware of the other side
can take any action at all. This rule reflects the fact that even
when a combatant is prepared, some amount of time is spent
assessing the situation, and thus only standard actions are
allowed to begin with.
This rule makes initiative have less of an impact, since it is in
the first round when initiative matters most. Even if a warrior gets
the jump on an opponent, at best he can make a single attack
against a foe before that foe can react."

Pages 22-23 gives rules on "new combatants", which is what Tass is, if he is entering the combat before being engaged, and that rule states:
DMG said:
"Newcomers Are Aware: If any (or all) of the newcomers are
aware of one or both of the sides in a battle, they take their actions
before anyone else. In effect, they go first in the initiative sequence.
Their initiative check result is considered to be 1 higher
than the highest initiative check result among the other participants
in the encounter."

So, not only does the DMG agree with us, all of your arguments so far have essentially agreed with us as well.
We are all confused that you do not see this.
 

It's nice that you get to go first now, but the ogre might be dead if you didn't delay and miss a full attack action 3 rounds ago. In fact, the whole party is probably suffering from this decision.
 

Answer this question: If you are low in hit points, and you are fighting--with one of your allies--a big, nasty Ogre who could possibly kill you in one blow, at which point in the Order of Battle would you like to be? First? Second? Or, last?

Once you answer that, I'll show you the example.

I would like to go before the ogre's next hit. It might be nice if my ally did too. This has no bearing, however, on my question, which is: What is the advantage of a high initiative vs low, considering that I'm going between the Ogre's two actions in either case?
 


I would like to go before the ogre's next hit. It might be nice if my ally did too. This has no bearing, however, on my question, which is: What is the advantage of a high initiative vs low, considering that I'm going between the Ogre's two actions in either case?

You just answered that yourself! You'd like to go before the Ogre's next hit because...because it's an advantage to be able to attack, and possibly kill, your opponent before he gets a chance to attack you!

So, here's the example I promised after you answered the question.

A party of three happen upon a Ogre, Hobgoblin, and a Goblin.

The combat starts and everybody rolls nish.

The Order of Battle is: Bob, Jon, Ogre, Hobby, Goblin, and Frank (who bricked his nish roll).

Bob moves to engage the Ogre.

Jon moves to engage the Hobby.

The Goblin charges Frank.



Round 1. Bob attacks Ogre.
Round 1. Jon attacks Hobby.
Round 1. Ogre attacks Bob.
Round 1. Hobby attacks Jon.
Round 1. Goblin charges Frank.
Round 1. Frank kills Goblin.

But, Frank was wounded badly from the Goblin's charge.

Round 2. Bob atacks Ogre.
Round 2. Jon attacks Hobby.
Round 2. Ogre attacks Bob.
Round 2. Hobby attacks Jon.

Frank has a choice to make. He can stay out of the combat completely to be safe--but he's not sure his two allies can win the day alone.

He can use his turn now and join one of the fights, but if he does so, the Nish Count will put him last. As you indicated above, it's an advantage to go early in the round so that you and your ally can get both of your attacks made before your enemy has his chance to attack because you may kill your opponent and preclude his attack.

That's a very important advantage if you are Frank, who is low on hit points.

So, Frank opts for Option #3. He Delays on Round 2 and changes the nish count so that he is most advantaged during the rest of the fight.

Round 2. Frank Delays.



Round 3. Frank attacks the Hobby.
Round 3. Bob attacks Ogre.
Round 3. Jon attacks Hobby.
Round 3. Ogre attacks Bob.
Round 3. Hobby attacks Jon (or possibly Frank, but most likely Jon).

Now...who has the advantage here? The party--who are all attacking before the monsters? Or the monsters, who are all attacking after the humans get a chance to act.



This example shows three things.

1. Initiative is important in later rounds of combat as well as the first round.
2. By one character using the Delay action, Frank was able to find advantage for the entire party to attack first before any of their enemies attacked.
3. Using the Delay Action in this way to "steal the nish" can be a potent and deadly tactic in combat.
 

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