Stealing The Nish

[Dross]

Water Bob,

I'm confused, I think that you are trying to say that it does not matter who gets initiative in the first round, delaying to go first in the 2nd round is usually/typically better.

I disagree (apologies but this ended up being long-winded)

Once an order is determined and you run through the first round, the combat sequence is like a carousel, A-B-C-D-E-F-A-B-C-D etc. By the 2nd round everyone is reactive to the person acting before them and forcing those acting after them to react, which means that A reacts to the actions of F even though F is reacting to the actions of A.

what point on the carousel is it better to be on?

Alternatively you have stated that

Yes, because it makes rolling for initiative rather moot. Skip an action, and you're the first to act in any round f rfgor the rest of the combat.

EDIT: For example, why take the Improved Initiative Feat when someone can just skip a six second round and easily go before you?

Paraphrasing arcseed in post 24 (remember there cannot be any simultaneous hits, someone MUST go first) using your 2 equal fighters

F2 wins nish
round 1: F2 hits, F1 delays
round 2: F1 hits, F2 hits
round 3: F1 hits, F2 hits
round 4: F1 hits, F2 hits
round 5: F1 hits, F2 hits F1 dies, despite having init 4/5 times.

If F1 does not delay
round 1: F2 hits, F1 hits
round 2: F2 hits, F1 hits
round 3: F2 hits, F1 hits
round 4: F2 hits, F1 hits
round 5: F2 hits, F1 hits F1 dies. Only change is to not have init at any stage.

F1 wins nish (and no I don't believe that this is terribly realistic for 1 on 1, with teammates however.....)
round 1: F1 delays, F2 hits
round 2: F1 hits, F2 hits
round 3: F1 hits, F2 hits
round 4: F1 hits, F2 hits
round 5: F1 hits, F2 hits F1 dies, despite having init every round.

If F1 had improved initiative to have him win nish (which by your estimation makes F1 weaker as he has apparently wasted a feat):
round 1: F1 hits, F2 hits
round 2: F1 hits, F2 hits
round 3: F1 hits, F2 hits
round 4: F1 hits, F2 hits
round 5: F1 hits, F2 hits F2 dies

Winning initiative in the first round determined which fighter stays alive (F1 gave his advantage away when he delayed in winning nish in round 1). That is why people say having initiative in the first round is more important than in later rounds. Which is Vegepygmy's (response 28 specifically) and others point.
This makes the assumption that the two started out in range together (as you did post #22, otherwise it is only 1 attack in the first round because of movement).

Delaying until the other person enters melee range can be advantageous (personally I'd prefer the ready action for this situation as you will get in the first blow: you ready, he moves, you attack once, he attacks once, you attack 2 he attacks 2) but usually only if other people can act to boost you (see below)

You're assuming that the character delaying was engaged. What if he wasn't? Like Tass in the example by another poster above. The bad guys were the Orc and the Ogre. The goodguys outnumbered 'em, so Tass didn't need to be engaged. Therefore, he could skip actions one round and always have nish over you in later rounds.

.

To address the Delay action, as you have here, let's keep the character that will Delay out of melee until his delay brings him to act. That would make nish meaning less since it is possible. As I said earlier, allowing a character to do that diminishes the advantage of having nish.

To use Tass, Gandalf, conan, Orc, Ogre example

If Tass had initiative before the orc or Ogre (and assuming that he could use it), he would get sneak attack on a flat-footed foe, possibly removing that foe before it acts. If he delays to be first in the next round then a lucky blow might fell Conan or Gandlaf before Tass acts again (thus he would have to react to the new situation despite being having nish in the new round). And no sneak attack in round 1 may force at least 1 more round of combat.

If Tass does not have a higher nish, then delaying to go after Gandalf or Conan might be worthwhile (of course it might not, it is situation dependent, such as flanking from Conan or a buff from Gandalf), but usually hurting an opponent now is usually better than hurting an opponent next round.

But the big assumption everyone seems to have made (maybe just to answer your specific Q) is that you must delay to have nish in subsequent rounds. The real boost from delay is that you delay, get a boost from your teammate (i.e. flanking or buff ) and act before your foe gets its actions. That does not require you to have nish in each round.

 

[arcseed]

Ok, here's the thing: no one is arguing that having an extra action over your opponent doesn't have a large effect on the outcome of the battle. Winning initiative gives you that extra action in the first round.

However-- once the order of actions is set by that initial initiative roll, order of actions is all that matters, not whether you go first or last in the round. Delaying to give yourself a higher initiative score does nothing to change the order of actions to benefit you, and is a nice demonstration that the higher initiative score, and going first in a round, is not particularly beneficial in itself.

 

[Dross]

No, he combined two issues. Issue #1 is about the Delay action. Issue #2 is the question of whether nish is important after round one.



It's obviously important during round 1 because of the flatfooted condition.

But, how can you not see that it's also important in round 5, or round 6, or any other round, when, those with nish, can make others react to them, and that those with nish will get the same or more attacks than their opponents.




Forget the Delay. Just focus on nish--or Issue #2--which is: Nish is still important in any combat round, not just the first.

Once you can see that, we can discuss the Delay.

Besides delay, Ready Action and Refocus are the only other ways I'm aware of that allows you to change when your actions go:

• readied action; changes your initiative to just before the condition that triggers it. You may or may not have nish from this.
• refocus; acts as if you had rolled 20 for your initiative. You may or may not have nish from this.

In the F1 V F2 Flat footed is not a necessary condition for either to win the fight.

How can you say that delay is separate from initiative if you are using it to gain nish in subsequent rounds?

To me it seems you can:

• Separate the two, which means winning nish in round 1 is all important because you cannot otherwise reliably gain nish. Thus the F who strikes first wins and Improved initiative, high DEX etc is important. This runs counter to your saying that it does not matter in your case of two fighters.
• Keep the two together to provide a sure fire way to get the nish in later rounds, which does not ensure that the F that delays to gain nish wins the fight (of which there are samples above).

 

[Axel]

Initiative does count for melee types that don't start in reach of each other, or mixed parties of melee'ers and spellcasters.

To extend the example of two 6th level fighters, that start at 10' distance. Some possible scenarios:
Fighter 1: Move, standard action attack
Fighter 2: Full attack.
Fighter 1: Fulll attack
etc...

Net result: 1 attack extra for whoever has just completed their turn. If Fighter 2 has a weapon with a good critical range, or fights intelligently with a trip or disarm maneuver he/she may be able to disable Fighter 1 (or damage them enough to win by attrition) by virtue of having rolled twice as many dice in the first turn.

Fighter 1: Delay
Fighter 2: Move, standard action attack.
Fighter 1: Delayed action: standard attack
Fighter 2: Full attack
Fighter 1: Full attack

Net result: Fighter 1 has surrendered their "first strike" and basically stuffed themself into the bargain. Fighter 2 will always have the same as, or more, attacks than Fighter 1. It's only worthwhile to delay if you started them, say, 70' apart (not capable of being crossed with a Charge move).

If Fighter 1 and 2 are also engaged with Cleric 1 and 2 on their respective sides, the equation changes again. Say the initative is Figher 1, Fighter 2, Cleric 1, Cleric 2.

Fighter 1: Move, standard action attack.
Fighter 2: Delay
Cleric 1: Move, standard action spell buff.
Cleric 2: Standard action spell buff.
Fighter 2: Delayed action, buffed attack!
Fighter 1: Buffed full attack.
Cleric 1: Heal

Net result: Fighter 2 got the better of round 1 by virtue of having a buffed attack (or debuffed opponent). If the starting distances are greater, Fighter 1 may have stuffed themselves by moving outside the range of Cleric 1's spells (particularly if the Cleric only has a 20' move).

Delaying is a valid tactic at times but its use is, IME, very situational. You need to think through how the round might play out - getting in before am opposed spellcaster casts Radiant Assault, or Forecage, or some other "I win" spell can be crucial if you're the only one acting before them. Othertimes it is worthwhile delaying for a Mass Bull's Strength, or Wall of Fire, or your opponent to fall into the intervening pit trap you have cleverly setup.

 

[Water Bob]

Water Bob,

I'm confused, I think that you are trying to say that it does not matter who gets initiative in the first round, delaying to go first in the 2nd round is usually/typically better.

No sir, I'm not saying that at all.

I don't really have an opinion about using the Delay action. I am still investigating it, and that's why I started this thread.

What I am saying is that a character with nish has an advantage in the first round and in every round after that (in disagreement with many people here saying that nish does not matter after the first round).

Ok, here's the thing: no one is arguing that having an extra action over your opponent doesn't have a large effect on the outcome of the battle. Winning initiative gives you that extra action in the first round.

It can also give it to you in later rounds, too. Note in the example below, Cain gets more actions than Able gets.

For example, Cain and Able fight.

R1: Cain attacks Able twice. Then Able attacks Cain twice.
R2: Ditto.
R3: Ditto.
R4: Ditto.
R5: Cain kills Able on the second attack.

Cain, because he had initiative, attacked Able a total of 10 times.

Able attacked Cain a total of 8 times.

There is no scenario where Able can attack Cain more times than Cain attacks him (unless Cain simply retreats or is disabled by an outside force), yet there is a scenario (this one) where the reverse is true--where Cain attacks Able more times than Able is "able" (hee-hee) to attack.

Why?

Cain has initiative, and Able does not.

Thus: Initiative does give an advantage to the character who holds it.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I don't really have an opinion about using the Delay action. I am still investigating it, and that's why I started this thread.

I think you have confused everyone by starting a thread about using the Delay action to "steal the nish," and then trying to discuss the advantages of having initiative without consideration of the Delay action.

What I am saying is that a character with nish has an advantage in the first round and in every round after that (in disagreement with many people here saying that nish does not matter after the first round).

We're not saying it doesn't "matter" after the first round; we're saying that the advantage is determined in the first round and never changes (unless the person with the advantage voluntarily gives it up).

So yes, if all you're saying is that winning initiative in the first round gives you an advantage in every round after that...we agree. (But you can't "steal" the advantage from someone by Delaying.)

 

[Water Bob]

I think you have confused everyone by starting a thread about using the Delay action to "steal the nish," and then trying to discuss the advantages of having initiative without consideration of the Delay action.

I originally started the thread to discuss the Delay action, but that second question grew out of the discussion, as these things often do in a discussion thread.

We're not saying it doesn't "matter" after the first round; we're saying that the advantage is determined in the first round and never changes (unless the person with the advantage voluntarily gives it up).


So yes, if all you're saying is that winning initiative in the first round gives you an advantage in every round after that...we agree.

That may be what you're saying now (and if so, we're in agreement), but if you look up thread, there are plenty of people who say that nish only matters on the first round and is meaningless thereafter (regardless of Delay).

(But you can't "steal" the advantage from someone by Delaying.)

But, if the other point is out of the way, I'm still not sure if I'm convinced that what you're saying here. There are other advantages to going first besides number of attacks, and even if a character gives up a round's worth of actions to get there, he may be able to steal advantage if his nish count changes.

I need to think more about this one and see if I can come up with an example of where advantage lies with the character who has nish even if he Delayed on Round 1.

 

[pneumatik]

I understand wanting to go earlier, but going first in a later round (say, round 3) is still worse than going last in round 2. I don't see how people are reacting to the guy who goes first in round three but not to the guy who goes last in round 2. In fact, I don't see why the person who goes first in round 3 isn't himself reacting to everyone who went before him later in the round.

When I play we almost always have all the monsters go on the same initiative. PCs would often delay to better coordinate attacks, but the delay almost never goes past the monsters' action. We instead just take a non-coordinated action right before the monsters and then re-order our actions for the next cycle. I've found it never matters specifically where in the round someone goes, just how many enemies they take their action before.

But more generally after any surprise round and the first round, when everyone's no longer flat-footed, rounds doing really matter. Spell durations expire on the caster's turn, so the caster just needs to track how many times they've gone. We don't re-roll initiative and we don't declare our actions all at the start of the round, so your specific initiative number doesn't really seem to matter.

As an aside, when we played L5R initiative was re-rolled every round and actions were declared in reverse-initiative order. So the first person was reacting to what everyone else was doing. Given how deadly the game was it was a huge advantage to win initiative.

 

[Water Bob]

I understand wanting to go earlier, but going first in a later round (say, round 3) is still worse than going last in round 2. I don't see how people are reacting to the guy who goes first in round three but not to the guy who goes last in round 2. In fact, I don't see why the person who goes first in round 3 isn't himself reacting to everyone who went before him later in the round.

Let me play Devil's Advocate with you and say, "What about the guy who went fourth (of five actors) in Round 2 who is now going first in Round 3. Can you see how those in Round 3 are not reacting to he who went last in Round 2 but to the dude before him?"

As an aside, when we played L5R initiative was re-rolled every round and actions were declared in reverse-initiative order. So the first person was reacting to what everyone else was doing. Given how deadly the game was it was a huge advantage to win initiative.

Used to do that in my last AD&D 2E game. Makes nish very random and fairly equal among combatants.

I play the Conan RPG, which is a version of D&D 3.5E, but since it is a very low magic and highly deadly game, I realize that I see the advantage of having nish more than a normal D&D 3.5 E player where the casual use of magic can change the advantage more often than not. Most Conan fights do not involve magic--just player tactics and combat maneuvers.

 

[arcseed]

. There are other advantages to going first besides number of attacks, and even if a character gives up a round's worth of actions to get there, he may be able to steal advantage if his nish count changes.

What are these advantages? Can you show me a single advantage to be gained over an opponent by going between his two actions at the beginning of a round, versus going between his two actions at the end of a round?

I don't think you can.