Stealth 4 Dummies

[AbdulAlhazred]

If a creature is INVISIBLE (one of our states on page 277), it is only a minor action to determine what square it is in. One can make three arguments from here.

1) A Hidden creature is invisible (and silent), by definition. Thus, an opponent can use a minor action to try and pin down what square the creature is in. This does not necessarily negate the Hidden state, allow attacks without a penalty, or negate the hidden creature's CA.
2) A Hidden creature is invisible by definition. But one could argue that the minor action perception check falls under the "Enemy Activity" clause described under stealth, thus a minor action perception check blows the hidden creature's cover and it loses the Hidden state. This raises the question -- if one monster locates a hidden creature, does it remain hidden for everyone else?
3) A Hidden creature is invisible AND silent. Thus it does not fall under this category at all, and a minor action check can't be used.

Three is the correct answer because if a character is hidden, they are silent, which rules out the conditions for using a minor action to locate their square. I would rule a character which is both invisible and hidden cannot be percieved at all by sight or sound and would only grant an active perception check if the monster has some sense like tremorsense or extraordinary smell or something like that. Basically if you're a rogue with stealth, unless someone runs into you or something like that, you pretty much will stay hidden and you should be able to move around at 2 squares per turn even in 'plain sight' because you AREN'T in plain site, your invisible! Any new monsters coming into the room would get a passive check.

I agree the rules are scattered and could have used another edit, but the whole PHB is like that. There are places where you have to take it as it was meant or find errata. Stealth does work, it might even be said to produce fairly credible results. You can attack from stealth with CA (essentially an instant of surprise or just the blow lands before the enemy even sees you).

As an aside, and it might be obvious, but the greatest advantage of all of course is initiating combat while hidden. Now you get an entire surprise round, and if you can do something like the warlock shoot and shadow walk you can keep it up round after round, lol.

 

[Smeelbo]

Playing based on what I've learned from this thread and reading the errata, the stealth rules work well enough. I recently experimented with "cornery" walls (irregular walls that provide cover), which greatly favors stealth, and the results were just what I was looking for.

One thing I could not find. The rogue stealthed up to the hidden goblin guard, but neither perceived the other. I ruled that since they were adjacent, they saw each other (no invisibility here, just simple stealth rolls). This feels right, but re-reading the errata, I saw nothing like that. Did I miss something?

Anyway, thanks again for this thread.

Smeelbo

 

[Ahglock]

I probably need this thread.

When I first read the title, I was like why would you want to hide dummies. If I were to create a lifelike humanoid I'd want it to be seen as like a distraction, which would more like be a bluff check....OH dummies, not manikin style dummies.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Playing based on what I've learned from this thread and reading the errata, the stealth rules work well enough. I recently experimented with "cornery" walls (irregular walls that provide cover), which greatly favors stealth, and the results were just what I was looking for.

One thing I could not find. The rogue stealthed up to the hidden goblin guard, but neither perceived the other. I ruled that since they were adjacent, they saw each other (no invisibility here, just simple stealth rolls). This feels right, but re-reading the errata, I saw nothing like that. Did I miss something?

Anyway, thanks again for this thread.

Smeelbo

Hmmm, interesting. I don't think you've missed anything Smeel. There are of course a few factors involved. Both parties would be subject to passive perception checks by the other, and possibly active ones as well. Vision could play a part. Goblins have LLV, so in the dark that won't do anything for them though. So I would think basically this situation is reasonable. In the flickery light or total dark (as the case may be) of the cave 2 opponents stand almost touching without sensing each other. In brighter light they can still each be hidden by a corner from each other. And when the rogue decides to pop around that corner they will both get a big surprise! (well, most likely the goblin won't get over his surprise, lol).

 

[Negflar2099]

I'm still confused about how the Rogue's Chameleon power is supposed to work. The part that confuses me is that it's an At-Will so what's to keep a Rogue from using it again and again to keep hidden? I'm still confused about that. I'm also having a hard time understanding why Shadow Stride is necessary if you have Chameleon.

Is this how it's supposed to be?

A Bugbear rogue is hiding behind a column which provides total cover allowing him to move and make a stealth check at the end of his move. Now he's exposed so he doesn't have cover or concealment but he has that power so he uses it and makes another stealth check to remain hidden. He remains hidden until the next of his next turn. That means he can't make another stealth check right because he doesn't have cover but what if he runs to cover? Doesn't that let him hide again? I'm confused.

 

[Spatula]

I'm still confused about how the Rogue's Chameleon power is supposed to work. The part that confuses me is that it's an At-Will so what's to keep a Rogue from using it again and again to keep hidden? I'm still confused about that. I'm also having a hard time understanding why Shadow Stride is necessary if you have Chameleon.

Well, Chameleon can only be used on others' turns, and only when the trigger conditions occur. Namely, you have to be (a) hidden, and (b) lose cover/concealment, which would normally make you visible.

So, say a female rogue is hidden around a corner. A male orc moves past the corner, revealing the rogue to him. The rogue uses Chamleon as an interrupt, succeeds at the Stealth check, and remains hidden until the end of her next turn. The orc stays put. On the rogue's turn, she can:

* Stay put. Chameleon runs out at the end of her turn, revealing her to the orc.
* Attack the orc. She'll have CA but the orc will then know where she is, obviously.
* Keep hiding. In order stay hidden, she'll need cover or concealment, which she currently does not have ("Remaining Hidden: Keep Out of Sight"). So she'll have to move to where the orc can't see her, making a Stealth check, possibly with speed penalties.

Shadow Stride allows you to move from cover to cover across open ground while remaining hidden, as long as you can cover the open space with one move action.

Is this how it's supposed to be?

A Bugbear rogue is hiding behind a column which provides total cover allowing him to move and make a stealth check at the end of his move. Now he's exposed so he doesn't have cover or concealment but he has that power so he uses it and makes another stealth check to remain hidden. He remains hidden until the next of his next turn. That means he can't make another stealth check right because he doesn't have cover but what if he runs to cover? Doesn't that let him hide again? I'm confused.

Assuming you're talking about Chameleon: as pointed out upthread, you can't use interrupts on your turn. Chameleon is protection against being revealed when an enemy's actions would make you visible.

 

[Negflar2099]

Well, Chameleon can only be used on others' turns, and only when the trigger conditions occur. Namely, you have to be (a) hidden, and (b) lose cover/concealment, which would normally make you visible.

Assuming you're talking about Chameleon: as pointed out upthread, you can't use interrupts on your turn. Chameleon is protection against being revealed when an enemy's actions would make you visible.

That explains it. That's the part I was missing. You can only use Chameleon when it's not your turn. D'oh. Now I get it. Thanks.

 

[Tarrl]

What if there is multiple orcs that walk around the corner where the rogue is stealthed? Does Chamelion cover all the orcs or just one?

 

[Black Knight Irios]

What if there is multiple orcs that walk around the corner where the rogue is stealthed? Does Chamelion cover all the orcs or just one?

It works against all orcs (if your stealth check is high enough).

 

[Tarrl]

Would each orc get a check to perceive?
Thanks!