Stealth 4 Dummies

[Black Knight Irios]

Would each orc get a check to perceive?
Thanks!

No the ROG rolls once and compares the result against each orc's passive perception score.

 

[Tarrl]

Thank you all very much. One more question. Does anyone think this is an overpowered 6th level at will power or am I being too conservative in my thinking?

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I don't think it is overpowered because it is not that easy to become hidden since the stealth update.

 

[Tarrl]

Hmm! Maybe we are doing stealth wrong. Our rogue has no problem at all in making stealth checks. In fact we are surprised when he does not get it.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Are you using the updated stealth rules?

And depending on environment stealth is still easy to do.

 

[Tarrl]

Yes, I believe we are.

It certainly seems so in the dungeon settings we have been in.

 

[Smeelbo]

I've made two mistakes so far in interpreting the Stealth rules. First, I missed the additional rolls under Keeping Still, and mistakenly ruled that a single Stealth check would suffice until you had to hide again. I think I will keep this rule for exploration outside of combat, for sanity's sake if nothing else.

Second, I had the hidden PC rogue and the hidden NPC goblin notice each other when adjacent, when in fact I should have had that occur when the rogue tried to enter the goblin's square.

These are the first stealth rules in D&D that are unambiguous and fair, and I continue to be impressed by 4E.

Smeelbo

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

Are you using the updated stealth rules?

And depending on environment stealth is still easy to do.

There is also a DM component. The Cover section of the DMG encourages winging it. Some DMs give more latitude, even within the area for which there are specific rules to call upon (corner to corner angles). Some things, such as anything relating to objects that confer cover/concealment from the ground up, are a judgement call regardless, as there are no formal rules for crouching or kneeling, or vision based upon the height of a creature in relation to elevation of an object.

And, there are two readings of Fleeting Ghost, as described in a customer service response posted on the giantitp forums (copied at the end of the post. If you use the reading that it allows you to make a stealth check as part of the power, functionally allowing you to hide in areas of cover and/or concealment, you'll hide a little more often and in more places.

Despite the assertion of the person asking the question, it doesn't negate the usefulness of Shadow Stride. Every game I've played or run used the reading that Fleeting Ghost allows you to make a check and it hasn't broken anything. It serves a gateway for using the other powers, as they require you to already be hidden.

Fleeting Ghost is the hide power, Chameleon is the stay hidden power and Shadow Stride is the sneak power. When you use the reading of Fleeting Ghost that it allows a check, you only avoid the penalty for movement on the check provided by the power, not a check you have to make because you moved more than 5 squares while hidden. So:

Fleeting Ghost: Hide, no penalty on check, can hide in cover/concealment.
Chameleon: Can remain hidden with no cover/concealment.
Shadow Stride: Sneak (move while hidden), no penalty on check, can sneak without any cover/concealment along path.

There is an exception with all three, the cover/concealment rather than superior cover/total concealment from Fleeting Ghost isn't out of line with the no cover/concealment exception of the other two. A rogue that wants to be stealthy will take all three.

The customer service response(s) - note that by the timing of the thread, the first responce was prior to the Stealth errata, while the two later responses were post-errata:

Q: Hi, recently a friend of mine wrote in with a question about Fleeting Ghost. The answer he received contradicts a previous answer I found from Wizards Customer Service regarding the same issue. Which is correct? The original question and answer I found online is as follows:

Q: Fleeting Ghost, p119, says you can move & make a stealth check. Does this mean that use of this power allows the rogue to ignore the normal rule that moving through open space during combat negates stealth, and allow them to make a stealth attack immediately after moving, while in plain view? Or does the rogue have to end their turn in concealment/cover for the stealth check to be valid?

A: This ability allows you to move at your full speed and not take a penalty to your stealth check, as described on page 188. All other rules for stealth, cover, and concealment still apply. source: 4E Customer Service Answers - ENWiki

Quoted below is what he just forwarded to me, which completely contradicts that and seems to give incredible power to a level 2 utility power, making it far stronger than Shadow Stride, a level 10 utility power, which is all but rendered irrelevant if this is really how it works.

Q: When using the fleeting ghost ability does it allow you to move while ignoring the regular rules for stealth (ie cover and concealment)? Or must you still follow the regular rules?

A: Greetings, No, you don't have to follow the normal rules for making stealth checks. You simply get to make one as a part of that power.

So which is correct?

A: Hello, Unfortunately, there isn’t an official answer for the situation you describe. I’ve passed along this conversation to the game’s developers. Hopefully, we’ll see an update or FAQ entry covering it soon, but until then it’s up to the campaign’s Dungeon Master to decide. The DM is always the final arbiter on how they want their campaign to run.

Have fun! Please let me know if you need anymore help!

 

[Tarrl]

Thank you for sharing that!!!

 

[Smeelbo]

I think the real question then becomes, is Fleeting Ghost broken if it indeed allows one to become hidden with just cover or concealment?

I read Fleeting Ghost that way initially, but was convinced I was in error.

Smeelbo