Stealth - back to RAW. PEACH

[clearstream]

This has edged back to RAI. Under these rulings the effects of stealth in combat don't extend beyond the action you are performing. My guides to intent are

I. Powers are intended to be the main focus of combat; even for Rogues.

II. Line one of the Stealth mechanics block on PHB188 is the key article of Stealth. It prevails over everything else.

So here are the suggested rulings...

1. If you have cover, concealment, or a diversion from any source against your enemies, and you're not carrying a light source, you can perform actions stealthily. Allies don't provide cover in your turn.

2. Make your check at the start of the action you perform stealthily. That can be any standard action, including an attack, or a move action, minor action, or free action. You must have cover, concealment, or a diversion at the start of that action.

3. If your enemies are not alert, compare your check to their passive Perception checks. You need equal or higher to get a success. Your enemies don't do anything or roll any dice.

4. If your enemies are alert, compare your check to their rolled Perception checks. You need equal or higher to get a success. Their checks use no action.

5. Your check is modified by the penalty for movement you intend to do: tell your DM your intended route. Enemy Perception checks are modified by the penalty for lightly obscuring squares between them and your start square.

6. Your enemies use their individual checks to determine whether your action is being performed stealthily against them. Your action might be being performed stealthily against some and not others.

7. Enemies whose checks you beat stop being aware of you at the start of your action. They can become aware of you during or after your action.

7a If your action is an attack, it has combat advantage. Enemies become aware of you as an immediate reaction if they have some line-of sight to your target.

7b If your action includes moving any squares, enemies aren’t aware of you while you maintain cover or concealment. Except in the case of a diversion, they become aware of you as an immediate interrupt when you lose cover or concealment. If you double-move, your whole move is performed as one action.

7c If your action combines attacks with moving, complete each attack entirely using 7a and then return to your remaining movement. Enemies having some line-of-sight to your target will now be aware of you.

7d If your action is a minor or free action, enemies aren’t aware of you unless you are creating a light source or shouting.

8. Enemies who are aware of you are alert, can perform opportunity attacks or immediate interrupts, and you don't have combat advantage against them (unless from another source). Enemies might be aware of you for only part of your action, but once aware of you they do not become unaware of you again until another action makes them unaware.

9. At the end of your action enemies who are not aware of you become aware of you as an immediate reaction if they have some line-of-sight to the square you are in. Enemies who were aware of you before or during your action, but aren't now, remain alert. Enemies capable of team work use free actions to share what direction or square you are in if they know it, and to make one another alert.

Modifiers to keep in mind are penalties to Perception due to interposing lightly obscured squares (-5), penalties on attacks due to cover (-2), and penalties on ranged or melee attacks due to concealment (-2, stacks with cover), and penalties on Stealth if you intend moving more than 2 squares (-5).

Superior Cover, Total Concealment, Invisibility, Blindness, Intervening Heavily Obscured squares, or 5+ Intervening Lightly Obscured squares, on top of stealth, mean additional rules apply.

-vk

 

[Paul Strack]

Some Comments

#4: Several of the examples of "opposed checks" on PH25 involved a rolled value (an attack) against a fixed value (Reflex Defense). I think you can safely argue that the "opposed check" between Stealth and Perception on PH188 is an active Stealth check against a passive Perception check. This is consistent with the Perception rules on PH186 and under TWYCS, which require standard or minor actions to make a Perception roll.

That lets you eliminate #4 and always use #3. I am of the opinion that active checks should only be used when it is your turn. In other words, active Perception checks to spot someone in TWYCS should be opposed by passive Stealth. This is important, because Free Actions can only be taken on your own turn.

#5: I agree with this, provided that you mean it only applies to your current action or actions you have already taken this turn, but not to future actions. Otherwise it is too hard to adjudicate.

#6: If you are going by RAW, Free Actions can only be taken on your own turn, so an alert enemy can only share your location and break Stealth when it gets to be his turn.

#8: This is big stretch if you are going by RAW. The Success block under Stealth states "If you later attack or shout, you are no longer hidden." That clearly indicates that hidden is a lasting condition.

#9: Same compliant as #8.

I wholeheartedly agree that only Total Concealment or Superior Cover let you use TWYCS, though. That's clear from the "Superior Cover or Total Concealment" block on PH188, and eliminates the biggest problem most people seem to have with Stealth, namely Stealth = Invisibility. Personally, I am OK with "Stealth + TC/SC" = Invisibility.

 

[seusomon]

Thank you for your work on this. Your collation and restatement of the scattered rules is a big help in gaining some clarity about the recurring stealth questions.

Okay, having had helpful critical remarks on my earlier attempt at RAI, here is an attempt at getting back to RAW. Once again, your feedback is really appreciated.

1. If you have cover, concealment, or a diversion from any source against enemies with some line-of-sight to you, you can use stealth provided your DM decides the given situation is appropriate. Allies don't provide cover in your turn, but they can provide cover in your enemies' turns. Carrying a light source negates cover or concealment, but has no effect on a diversion.

Could you say a bit more about allies providing cover in your enemies' turns - I don't see where that comes from, or how it would be useful.

3. If your enemies are not alert to your presence, roll your stealth check at the start of your action against their passive Perceptions. You must roll equal or higher to get a success. Your enemies don't do anything or roll any dice.

4. If your enemies are alert to your presence, roll your check at the start of your action opposed by their Perception checks. You must roll equal or higher to get a success. They make their checks using free actions.

I like this. I think passive perception is used when no one has a reason to suspect anything. After you have attacked, the enemies are on edge, wondering "where is that sneak?" From the RAW, though, one might argue that the enemies would use active perception during their own turns (they initiate, you respond with a stealth check).

I would personally do it as a DM call. If they are aware that you are around somewhere, but are focused on other characters, they could roll active perception checks whenever you use stealth. If they are determined to find you out, they roll active perception checks on their own turns (minor action, maybe) and you roll a stealth check in response.

8. Being hidden applies only to the action performed stealthily, and does not extend beyond that action.

I would probably say that being hidden remains in effect until you do something that might reasonably be expected to reveal your location: movement, attack, noise, etc. If the enemy is unaware of you, you ought to be able to drink a healing potion (say), without becoming unhidden.

9. At the end of whatever action you performed stealthily, you are no longer hidden. Enemies will become alert to your presence depending on what they already know and your current location. If that location qualifies for superior cover or total concealment and enemies are alert to your presence, they must use the Targeting What You Can't See Rules to locate or target you.

OK, but (as above) I would qualify by saying that the action has to be of the sort that would be revealing (DM ruling / common sense). Some actions would allow you to remain hidden.

General philosophy for me:

There are three stage of opportunity for stealth.

The first is at the beginning of an encounter, when the enemies don't even know you exist. At this stage, DMs should give a lot of slack to characters using stealth. Passive perception, any cover/concealment is good, any distraction is plausible.

At the next stage, enemies are aware that there is a stealthy character about. They get to make individual active perception checks in response to attempts at stealth, they communicate with each other (generally). They will assume the character is at the position where he was last spotted or last attacked from. The character needs to be moving and succeeding at opposed stealth checks to maintain combat advantage.

At the third stage, enemies are actively chasing down the character, using active perception checks as (minor?) actions, maneuvering to get a view of him, etc. It should be pretty difficult to maintain combat advantage under these circumstances, but not impossible. (Note that this stage may never be reached if the monsters are kept thoroughly occupied by the character's allies.)

 

[the_redbeard]

2. You make your check as part of the action you perform stealthily. That can be any standard action, including an attack, or a move action, minor action, or free action. Your DM considers your choice of action as part of deciding if the given situation is appropriate.

Attacks break stealth. To me, it is nonsensical that an attack be used to stealth.

Yes, I see stealth as an action that can be used to gain a condition.

The FAQ, in stating that you use the Targeting What You Can't See rules, supports that. Once you've successfully stealthed, you can't be seen. That's a condition that lasts past your turn, not just the action you are performing on your turn.

Not every use of stealth (ie, using stealth to pick your nose in the King's presence without being noticed) will make you hidden from view.

4. If your enemies are alert to your presence, roll your check at the start of your action opposed by their Perception checks. You must roll equal or higher to get a success. They make their checks using free actions.

Where's the RAW for this?

Under perception, page 186:
Perception: No action required—either you notice
something or you don’t. Your DM usually uses your
passive Perception check result. If you want to use the
skill actively, you need to take a standard action or
spend 1 minute listening or searching, depending on
the task.

And the more specific rule on page 281:
Make a Perception Check: On your turn, you can make
an active Perception check as a minor action,

You may be referring to something in the DMG:
Monster Readiness, page 36
"Alert: The monsters have perceived a possible
threat and made themselves ready to face it. They
have weapons at the ready, and they’ve moved to the
best positions to engage a straightforward attack from
a likely source. They prepare any available defenses,
possibly including powers that enhance their combat
abilities. They roll active Perception checks each
round. If no threat materializes after 10 minutes, most
monsters revert back to the ready state."

This refers to precombat conditions. Alert creatures, waiting for an attack, will logically use an action every round to make an active perception check.
This does not contradict the rule in the perception skill, " If you want to use the skill actively, you need to take a standard action" or the rule for targeting what you can't see, "Make a Perception Check: On your turn, you can make
an active Perception check as a minor action,"

8. Being hidden applies only to the action performed stealthily, and does not extend beyond that action.

But it does because it extends past your turn to the opponents turn. Otherwise, they wouldn't use the "Targeting What You Can't See" rules as explicitly stated in the FAQ. (And uh, common sense for "hidden from view" but I digress.) The FAQ does not state that you have to be in Total Cover/Concealment, it states that if you succeed using stealth to hide, you can't be seen.

Success: You avoid notice, hidden from view...
FAQ:
"16. What are the benefits of being hidden?
There are several benefits of being hidden from an enemy - you have combat advantage against them and they will have a more difficult time targeting you because you are unseen. Page 281 of the Player's Handbook explains the rules for targeting unseen creatures."

 

[clearstream]

The reading I am making flows from taking the first line of the Stealth block on PHB188 as the most important reference wording for the intent of stealth use. As the_redbeard points out, I'm not then allowing other pieces of RAW to intrude on that intent unless they contain instructive wording connecting them to the process, e.g. do this, this means, then go to, etc. Language contained in the Stealth block itself I read as instructive; and the same for jargon definitions that must unavoidably be referred to.

I'm doing this because I believe Stealth needs to either apply just to the action it is part of, or to create a condition under which actions occur, but not both. Trying to do both is a major source of contention and confusion, as well as creating contradictory readings of RAW.

#4: Several of the examples of "opposed checks" on PH25 involved a rolled value (an attack) against a fixed value (Reflex Defense). I think you can safely argue that the "opposed check" between Stealth and Perception on PH188 is an active Stealth check against a passive Perception check. This is consistent with the Perception rules on PH186 and under TWYCS, which require standard or minor actions to make a Perception roll.

You can say that, and with some justice, but take a look how an opposed check is defined in RAW (PHB25). 'Occasionally you make a check that is compared against someone else's check result. Doing this is called making an opposed check.' The context sets that in contrast to checks against static defences. My error with this ruling is to suggest it uses free actions. RAW doesn't tell you it should cost your enemies any action.

the_redbeard can you look at this too please; check PHB25? You've outlined some suggestive wording, but nothing at all that unambiguously reads 'this opposed check uses passive Perception'.

This is important, because Free Actions can only be taken on your own turn.

PHB267 reads that free actions can be done on other combatant's turns.

an alert enemy can only share your location and break Stealth when it gets to be his turn.

I'm going to have to agree with your conclusion, but not the reasoning. Free actions can't be taken during an opponent's action. So there's no chance they could communicate until whatever action was being performed stealthily was over. seusemon I believe the edit I'm about to make will cover one of your points too.

##8: This is big stretch if you are going by RAW. The Success block under Stealth states "If you later attack or shout, you are no longer hidden." That clearly indicates that hidden is a lasting condition.

The first line of the Stealth rules block reads 'part of whatever action you are trying to perform stealthily'. I cannot find wording less ambiguous than that telling you that your hidden condition extends past that action.

The second line of the Success block does introduce confusion and I'm not saying it doesn't admit of another reading. The reading I'd have to proffer is that attacking or shouting can end stealth earlier than the end of your action. For instance if you set up Riposte Strike, and then move stealthily and are OA'd by a perceptive Orc. The rest of your move isn't hidden.

-vk

 

[NeoNick]

Okay, having had helpful critical remarks on
1. ... Allies don't provide cover in your turn, but they can provide cover in your enemies' turns.

I do not agree with this. Why shouldn't allies give cover in your turn?

 

[clearstream]

I do not agree with this. Why shouldn't allies give cover in your turn?

Many people share your view to be honest. Here's the situation

R _ A H

R is the ranged attacker, and on R's turn H has cover from A. But at the end of R's turn R switches weapon to

M _ A H

R is now M, a reaching melee attacker. R isn't making an attack right now, but in H's turn R is not a Ranged attacker.

There are other cases that look similar, but from varying ranges and with varying tricks to turn R into something other than R. Bottom line, there's no reason to suppose R remains as a ranged attacker during H's turn. The RAW on PHB280 reads 'When' not 'If', and of course DMG43 RAW tells DMs to use common sense.

You might like to run it otherwise and you'd be supported in doing so by RAI clarifications from WotC CSRs, but I feel I've correctly represented the RAW on this issue.

-vk

 

[MarkB]

Many people share your view to be honest. Here's the situation

R _ A H

R is the ranged attacker, and on R's turn H has cover from A. But at the end of R's turn R switches weapon to

M _ A H

R is now M, a reaching melee attacker. R isn't making an attack right now, but in H's turn R is not a Ranged attacker.

There are other cases that look similar, but from varying ranges and with varying tricks to turn R into something other than R. Bottom line, there's no reason to suppose R remains as a ranged attacker during H's turn. The RAW on PHB280 reads 'When' not 'If', and of course DMG43 RAW tells DMs to use common sense.

You might like to run it otherwise and you'd be supported in doing so by RAI clarifications from WotC CSRs, but I feel I've correctly represented the RAW on this issue.

The rules don't define the terms "ranged attacker" or "melee attacker", so they're not relevant to a RAW discussion. In any case, R/M could just as easily throw his reach weapon as an improvised weapon, draw a throwing weapon, or use a ranged attack spell. The fact that he's not currently making a ranged attack doesn't alter the fact that H has cover versus his ranged attacks.

That said, I dislike the use of allies for stealth-cover and consider it only marginally supported in the RAW.

 

[clearstream]

The rules don't define the terms "ranged attacker" or "melee attacker", so they're not relevant to a RAW discussion. In any case, R/M could just as easily throw his reach weapon as an improvised weapon, draw a throwing weapon, or use a ranged attack spell. The fact that he's not currently making a ranged attack doesn't alter the fact that H has cover versus his ranged attacks.

Interesting point. I read it like this 'When you make a ranged attack against your enemy, and other enemies are in the way, your target has cover'. So purely by RAW, the cover is only there when the ranged attack is being made. CSR later introduced confusion, but did not say the cover extended to your turn.

I share your distaste of this gambit. Whatever the other arguments are, I rely on DMG43.

-vk

 

[MarkB]

Interesting point. I read it like this 'When you make a ranged attack against your enemy, and other enemies are in the way, your target has cover'. So purely by RAW, the cover is only there when the ranged attack is being made. CSR later introduced confusion, but did not say the cover extended to your turn.

If that's your interpretation, then that cover doesn't simply apply only on opponents' turns - it applies only in the moment the enemy is taking their shot. Unless you have an Immediate Interrupt power that lets you make a stealth check in response to their attack, I don't see how cover under this interpretation can be applied to stealth checks at all.