Stealth - back to RAW. PEACH

[mach1.9pants]

It stands for "Please Examine And Critique Honestly".

Thanks, I am pretty good at TLAs but 'FLA's are just to far for my simple mind!

 

[the_redbeard]

BTW is there anything to tell us 'active' checks are made only in your own turn?

EDIT and check the wording on PHB26.

-vk

We've pointed this out AGAIN and AGAIN.

Yes, on page 26 it says:
"A rogue’s Stealth check is a skill
check against a DC equal to the target’s Perception
check result (an opposed check). If the check result is
higher than or equal to the DC, you succeed."

It does not say whether the DC is based on an active check of the perception skill or a passive check of the perception skill.


Yes, it does say this on 178 in an example of Opposed Checks:

"When you use Stealth, for example, you’re testing your ability to hide
against someone else’s ability to spot hidden things
(the Perception skill). These skill contests are called
opposed checks."

Which is specific to perception vs stealth. However the next sentence

"When you make an opposed check, both characters roll, and the higher check result wins."

This is a general statement on opposed checks, not a specific one.


BUT, here is a more specific case:
Page 186:
Perception: No action required—either you notice
something or you don’t. Your DM usually uses your
passive Perception check result. If you want to use the
skill actively, you need to take a standard action or
spend 1 minute listening or searching, depending on
the task.

Seems clear that you need to take at least a standard action to get an active perception check unless there is an even more specific rule for using the perception skill... .and there is, on 281 in the even more specific case of spending a minor action to attempt to find a target that you can't see.
Still, an action is required for an active perception check. (This makes no judgment on any other skills.)

This is the most specific wording for use of the perception skill which explicitly calls out whether the check is active or passive.
The other mentions of perception vs stealth do not specify if the check is active or passive.
The specific wording of how the perception skill is used over rides the general rule of opposed checks.


*

Your question to CS seems to be designed to get a certain answer because you did not mention the conflicting rules. Yes, if you want to use CS to support your position, you need to present both sides of the story.

 

[clearstream]

BUT, here is a more specific case:
Page 186:
Perception: No action required—either you notice
something or you don’t. Your DM usually uses your
passive Perception check result. If you want to use the
skill actively, you need to take a standard action or
spend 1 minute listening or searching, depending on
the task.

Seems clear that you need to take at least a standard action to get an active perception check unless there is an even more specific rule for using the perception skill... .and there is, on 281 in the even more specific case of spending a minor action to attempt to find a target that you can't see.
Still, an action is required for an active perception check. (This makes no judgment on any other skills.)

This is the most specific wording for use of the perception skill which explicitly calls out whether the check is active or passive.
The other mentions of perception vs stealth do not specify if the check is active or passive.
The specific wording of how the perception skill is used over rides the general rule of opposed checks.

As you point out, there is an exception to the exception: minor actions to spot hiders. Since most times an opposed roll is made with any skill it will be made during an opponent's turn, it is obtuse to suppose that failure to mention that even once under Opposed Checks was accidental. (Of course, it might be )

You're seeing 'actively' in a couple of places and joining up the dots in a way I resist because a)enemies who are alert may very well be spending standard checks in their turns, and still have no way to get a roll when the Rogue enters the scene since the Rogue will roll in his turn, when they can't use standard actions; and b) using passive makes it unlikely even alert enemies will spot the Rogue: the Stealth wording becomes 'If you have cover or concealment, actions in your turn are performed stealthily'.

Your question to CS seems to be designed to get a certain answer because you did not mention the conflicting rules. Yes, if you want to use CS to support your position, you need to present both sides of the story

If your goal is to prepare a case to dismiss any CSR response, why not come out and say you won't listen to such rulings? I posted my questions in anticipation Mark wouldn't agree to me. Since they're my questions the stressed the points I felt to be important. If you don't like the way they're framed, propose wording or send your own questions.

-vk

 

[the_redbeard]

As you point out, there is an exception to the exception: minor actions to spot hiders.

It is an exception consistent with the theme: you need to take an action to get an active perception roll. It is consistent with the exception - not a contradiction to the exception.

No where does it specify that an active perception check be granted without an action. Conversely, passive perception checks are said to be called by the DM, 'usually', etc.

Since most times an opposed roll is made with any skill it will be made during an opponent's turn, it is obtuse to suppose that failure to mention that even once under Opposed Checks was accidental. (Of course, it might be )

As you say, that is consistent with all opposed checks. I'm not saying you need an action to make an active check with any skill - the exception is only for the perception skill.
Try again.

You're seeing 'actively' in a couple of places and joining up the dots in a way I resist because a)enemies who are alert may very well be spending standard checks in their turns, and still have no way to get a roll when the Rogue enters the scene since the Rogue will roll in his turn, when they can't use standard actions;

If they are using their standard actions to search, they get their roll versus the stealther's previous roll.

The rules are clear that you need to actually take time of your turn to get an active perception check.

and b) using passive makes it unlikely even alert enemies will spot the Rogue: the Stealth wording becomes 'If you have cover or concealment, actions in your turn are performed stealthily'.

No.
It makes the perception skill a valuable skill. If someone in the party (or a monster encounter group) invests as heavily in perception as a stealther invests in stealth, then a passive perception check is just about the average stealth roll.

Stealthers are not invincible. But it does necessitate an arms race. Clerics should spend a feat for skill training. Rangers will be valuable in the party - and so on. If you really have a problem, you could use Aid Another.
There's also the Ready Action - which could even be used for a charge.

If your goal is to prepare a case to dismiss any CSR response, why not come out and say you won't listen to such rulings?

I am not one to disavow anything CSR says, and I don't always get the answers I'm seeking.
But I do honestly feel your question was a poor one - so I said so.

I posted my questions in anticipation Mark wouldn't agree to me. Since they're my questions the stressed the points I felt to be important.

You didn't quote the opposing rules at all. That's different than stressing - that's omission.

You effectively asked the CSR, "I think the sky is blue. On page 1 of the Daily Handbook, it says the sky is blue. Am I right?"

While Mark B is saying, "On page 2 of the Daily Handbook, it says the sky can sometimes be orange during sunrises and sunsets. VK, your proposed simplification of sky color doesn't cover all situations."

 

[MarkB]

Background:

The rules for opposed skill checks (PHB 178) say that both parties roll checks.

The rules for passive checks (PHB 179) say that they are a form of opposed check in which only the active participant rolls, the passive participant using a fixed skill value as though they had taken 10, and that they're used whenever a character is not 'actively' using a skill.

I put actively in quotes because I'm not sure whether it means 'intentionally' or 'consciously', or whether it carries the same mechanical meaning as 'active'.

Both sections use Stealth vs. Perception as an illustrative example, with the passive checks section specifying a situation in which those making the Perception checks aren't actively looking around for danger, and opposed checks specifying a situation where a character is hiding while another tries to see them.

The Stealth skill description (PHB 188) describes Stealth as an opposed check, Stealth vs. Perception, and usually this check is taken in one character's turn at the moment they try to perform an action stealthily.

The Perception skill description (PHB 186) states that the DM usually uses your passive Perception check, and that you need to take a standard action to use the skill actively.

Question:

When making an opposed Stealth vs. Perception check during combat, do those opposing the Stealth check use their passive Perception, or roll Perception checks? Or is it up to the DM based on what the players have described their characters as doing? For example, would characters who say they are alert to danger make 'active' checks even though it's not their turn, while characters who aren't looking out for danger would make passive checks?

If the latter, does this require any action on their turn? Related to that, is an active check only a check you can make using an action on your own turn, or does 'active' just mean 'you roll the dice' and you can make an active check in someone else's turn if you have to?
​

Heh - lots of leaning all ways. But... okay?

Looks good. Go for it.

 

[Xyl]

What does "hidden" mean?

What does "hidden" mean?

The rogue abilities Hide from the Light, Hide in Plain Sight, and Shadow Stride all say "You must be hidden to use this power". Two of them give you a condition (invisible), without limiting it to only enemies you were hidden from. That implies that "hidden" is a status you either have or don't have.

So... what does "hidden" mean? How can you read the stealth rules so that those three powers work as written?

 

[MarkB]

What does "hidden" mean?

The rogue abilities Hide from the Light, Hide in Plain Sight, and Shadow Stride all say "You must be hidden to use this power". Two of them give you a condition (invisible), without limiting it to only enemies you were hidden from. That implies that "hidden" is a status you either have or don't have.

So... what does "hidden" mean? How can you read the stealth rules so that those three powers work as written?

That is actually a very good question. If you are successfully hidden from some creatures, but not from others, can you use a power that requires you to be hidden?

I'd tend towards ruling that you can use these powers whenever you are successfully hidden from at least one creature, and that their effects apply only against creatures from whom you were hidden when you activated the power.

So Hide in Plain Sight and Hide From the Light give you Eyebite-style selective invisibility, and anyone who could see you at the start of your Shadow Stride can still see you all the way through it, only losing sight of you at the end if your Stealth check would beat their Perception check at a -5 penalty.

 

[jdpacheco]

That is actually a very good question. If you are successfully hidden from some creatures, but not from others, can you use a power that requires you to be hidden?

I'd tend towards ruling that you can use these powers whenever you are successfully hidden from at least one creature, and that their effects apply only against creatures from whom you were hidden when you activated the power.

So Hide in Plain Sight and Hide From the Light give you Eyebite-style selective invisibility, and anyone who could see you at the start of your Shadow Stride can still see you all the way through it, only losing sight of you at the end if your Stealth check would beat their Perception check at a -5 penalty.

I would say: Hidden is something you are from *all* creatures, at least for the sake of these feats. Any time actual invisibility enters into it, it gets a little bit shaky. Also, what happens if you're "invisible" and a new creature enter combat. Do you check to see if your old Stealth beats their Perception? Do you roll a new Stealth? Are you suddenly not invisible just because you entered a new room, or someone new entered the room?

I say: If you're hidden from *all* opponents, you can use said powers, and you will continue to be invisible or whatever for as long as that power would normally last. If that makes sense.

And, my take on Stealth:
Actions are performed in conjunction with Stealth Checks.
If you have concealment or cover (or the target is distracted) (and you aren't carrying or being light), you can attempt Stealth *before* the action you would like to perform in a stealth-like fashion.
Make the check (vs Passive).
If it's an attack (and you succeeded on the Stealth vs your target), you have combat advantage for that attack, but lose stealth immediately after the attack.
If it's a move, those who's passive you're better than lose track of where you are. You are effectively hidden from them (until a later time). If, as part of this move, you move more than 2 squares, you take a -5 penalty on the check.
You *can* only make a Stealth check if you just want to be hidden, but you'll have to make another one as soon as you decide to do anything else. The way I think of this one is "Move 0 squares and make a Stealth check", making a Move action to simply Hide.
On a creature's turn, they can take a Standard action to "search" for you, making an Active Perception check.