Stealth - back to RAW. PEACH

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

Just a note to draw attention to some interesting re-wordings of my OP.

This has edged back to RAI. I've revised my preamble to make that clear up front.

-vk

Can you support that these two statements (I. and II.)are the definitive guides to intent?

This has edged back to RAI. Under these rulings the effects of stealth in combat don't extend beyond the action you are performing. My guides to intent are

I. Powers are intended to be the main focus of combat; even for Rogues.

II. Line one of the Stealth mechanics block on PHB188 is the key article of Stealth. It prevails over everything else.

And, can you support this (2.)? What shows the intent that stealth has to be rolled at the start of an action and that you can't gain cover or concealment in the middle of an action and roll stealth then?

2. Make your check at the start of the action you perform stealthily. That can be any standard action, including an attack, or a move action, minor action, or free action. You must have cover, concealment, or a diversion at the start of that action.

 

[James McMurray]

What does PEACH mean?

 

[MarkB]

I posted this to WotC CS

Hi. Could you help me with two questions please?
1. When opposed checks are made, do both parties always roll dice?
2. The wording under Opposed Checks on p178 only refers to characters: do monsters also make opposed checks?

Who respond

Greetings Klaude,
1. Yes, both parties roll.
2. Yes, monsters can make opposed checks.

Given that it's passive checks you're trying to clarify, why would you write a question to CSR that makes no reference to passive checks?

All they've done is confirm the general rule for opposed checks that you already knew - both sides roll. This says nothing about the more specific case of opposed checks involving passive checks, and thus adds nothing to the discussion.

All active checks are rolls! X is a roll. = X is an active check is unproven.

All rolls are active checks? X is a roll, but is not an active check. = It is proven that some X are not active checks.

I adduce that in support of my reading of the Opposed Checks wording, which neither mentions active nor passive checks, and note that in that wording the case in point is a roll against an attempt to hide. CSR also rules that way.

Since your question to CSR mentioned neither passive checks nor opposed stealth checks, you have no evidence as to how they rule (even assuming that they rule consistently, which they demonstrably don't).

The rules for Passive Checks talk almost exclusively of their application to opposed checks. How can you possibly reconclie this with an assertion that no opposed check involves a passive check? And if you do insist upon that assertion, why do passive checks exist at all?

And that says nothing of the specific rules for Perception, which baldly state that passive checks should be used for practically any situation. Given that opposing Stealth checks is one of Perception's primary applications, don't you think they'd have spelled it out as an exception to that rule if it was meant to be?

 

[clearstream]

Given that it's passive checks you're trying to clarify, why would you write a question to CSR that makes no reference to passive checks?

All they've done is confirm the general rule for opposed checks that you already knew - both sides roll. This says nothing about the more specific case of opposed checks involving passive checks, and thus adds nothing to the discussion.

The check in Stealth says 'opposed'. I asked if opposed checks are always rolled. The answer was yes.

One might be thinking 'opposed checks are always rolled by both parties, when they are both active'. One ends up arguing that some significant wording was omitted by mistake from the Opposed Checks block.

One would then also need to be imagining that in the example in the Opposed Checks block, the hider has made their check in their turn, and now the perceiver will look for them in the seeker's turn. Both are active, but it was another unfortunate omission not to say so.

And then we must consider that Stealth predominantely does not work that way. The opposed check happens as part of the action of the player doing the hiding and is resolved before the other player gets a turn. We might say 'oh ho, that makes it passive!'... so now we are arguing that another unfortunate error has been made. Instead of choosing an example that will frequently arise in play, the example chosen for the Opposed Checks block was by chance a very marginal case.

Significant wording missed out, on top of an unfortunate omission, on top of a corner case example where by all rights a common case should have be cited, feels stretched. Without wording in that direction in the Stealth rules block there isn't enough substance here to make a case that 'Opposed Stealth checks are active vs passive'.

A simpler reading is more likely to be the right one. 'Stealth checks are opposed. Unless you are not looking out for danger, both sides roll.'

-vk

 

[MarkB]

The check in Stealth says 'opposed'. I asked if opposed checks are always rolled. The answer was yes.

And yet, we know that 4e uses exception-based design. So "always" doesn't mean "always", it means "always, except where a specific case overrides it".

One might be thinking 'opposed checks are always rolled by both parties, when they are both active'. One ends up arguing that some significant wording was omitted by mistake from the Opposed Checks block.

It doesn't need to be in the Opposed Checks block. It's in the Passive Checks block. The whole point of exception-based design is that you don't need to state every exception when you state the general rule, because the exceptions override that general rule automatically.

One would then also need to be imagining that in the example in the Opposed Checks block, the hider has made their check in their turn, and now the perceiver will look for them in the seeker's turn. Both are active, but it was another unfortunate omission not to say so.

And then we must consider that Stealth predominantely does not work that way. The opposed check happens as part of the action of the player doing the hiding and is resolved before the other player gets a turn. We might say 'oh ho, that makes it passive!'... so now we are arguing that another unfortunate error has been made. Instead of choosing an example that will frequently arise in play, the example chosen for the Opposed Checks block was by chance a very marginal case.

Or it was a poorly-chosen example, since it's overriden by the specific wording under the Perception heading - which I pointed out last time, and which you have not addressed.

Significant wording missed out, on top of an unfortunate omission, on top of a corner case example where by all rights a common case should have be cited, feels stretched. Without wording in that direction in the Stealth rules block there isn't enough substance here to make a case that 'Opposed Stealth checks are active vs passive'.

There's no such thing as an opposed Stealth check. There is an opposed Stealth vs. Perception check, and so we look to the wording of both the Stealth and Perception rules to determine how it is resolved.

A simpler reading is more likely to be the right one. 'Stealth checks are opposed. Unless you are not looking out for danger, both sides roll.'

4e aims for simpler resolutions in play. If one interpretation requires a single roll opposed by several (possibly many) opponents' rolls, and the other interpretation requires a single roll compared to a pre-calculated set of numbers, the latter is more likely to be correct.

 

[mach1.9pants]

As an aside, what does PEACH mean? Excuse my n00bishness!

 

[clearstream]

Anticipating you wouldn't be swayed I tried for more detail from WotC CS. I posted

I see I need just a little more info. If character X is actively using their skill, say they're using stealth to hide in their turn, while character Y is alert to them, but it's not Y's turn. Do both characters still roll dice for the opposed skill check?

To which was answered

Any time a character wants to attempt to do something without another creature noticing they will need to make an opposed stealth check. This is true regardless of what turn it is.

This was the same representative who answered

1. Yes, both parties roll.

To the question

1. When opposed checks are made, do both parties always roll dice?

Both parties always roll dice when opposed checks are made regardless of what turn it is, i.e. when one of them cannot be actively using their skill. So for an opposed check for Stealth regardless of what turn it is both parties always roll dice, even the one not actively using Perception.

Why don't we work out the framing of a question together, so we're both happy with what is asked, and I will put that to WotC CS?

-vk

 

[MarkB]

As an aside, what does PEACH mean? Excuse my n00bishness!

It stands for "Please Examine And Critique Honestly".

Anticipating you wouldn't be swayed I tried for more detail from WotC CS. I posted

I see I need just a little more info. If character X is actively using their skill, say they're using stealth to hide in their turn, while character Y is alert to them, but it's not Y's turn. Do both characters still roll dice for the opposed skill check?

To which was answered

Any time a character wants to attempt to do something without another creature noticing they will need to make an opposed stealth check. This is true regardless of what turn it is.

This was the same representative who answered

1. Yes, both parties roll.

To the question

1. When opposed checks are made, do both parties always roll dice?

Both parties always roll dice when opposed checks are made regardless of what turn it is, i.e. when one of them cannot be actively using their skill. So for an opposed check for Stealth regardless of what turn it is both parties always roll dice, even the one not actively using Perception.

Why don't we work out the framing of a question together, so we're both happy with what is asked, and I will put that to WotC CS?

-vk

My only complaint to your previous question to CSR was that, in a discussion about the applicability or not of passive checks, you failed to even mention passive checks in your question, let alone actually ask when they apply.

So you've got me scratching my head now as to why, in response to my previous post, you would seek clarity by submitting a follow-up question that yet again fails to even mention passive checks.

The only answer I can come up with is that it's a deliberate evasion. I hope that this is not the case, but it's hard to see another explanation.

I don't consider CSR to have a particularly useful record as arbiters of rules interpretation, but if you really wish to pursue this avenue of enquiry, try something like the following:

Background:

The rules for opposed skill checks (PHB 178) say that both parties roll checks.

The rules for passive checks (PHB 179) say that they are a form of opposed check in which only the active participant rolls, the passive participant using a fixed skill value as though they had taken 10, and that they're used whenever a character is not actively using a skill.

Both sections use Stealth vs. Perception as an illustrative example, with the passive checks section specifying a situation in which those making the Perception checks aren't actively looking around for danger.

The Stealth skill description (PHB 188) describes Stealth as an opposed check, Stealth vs. Perception.

The Perception skill description (PHB 186) states that the DM usually uses your passive Perception check, and that you need to take a standard action to use the skill actively.

Question:

When making an opposed Stealth vs. Perception check during combat, do those opposing the Stealth check use their passive Perception, or roll Perception checks?

If the latter, does this require any action on their turn? And if they roll lower than their passive check value, must they use the lower result?​

That should sufficiently establish the frame of reference, and provide a definitive answer to the question you're asking here.

 

[clearstream]

So you've got me scratching my head now as to why, in response to my previous post, you would seek clarity by submitting a follow-up question that yet again fails to even mention passive checks.

The only answer I can come up with is that it's a deliberate evasion. I hope that this is not the case, but it's hard to see another explanation..

For shame. Sometimes what seems very important to one, and indeed, what one has stressed repeatedly, seems unimportant to another such that they neglect it.

On my part, I really scratched my head over your dismissal of always.

I don't consider CSR to have a particularly useful record as arbiters of rules interpretation,

True, but they are a neutral and informed third opinion. I view asking them as like getting a ruling from an RPGA DM. WotC would support that ruling on the day, but it's still only one DMs ruling based on what they know. It's like trial precedent, I suppose. Informs, but doesn't necessarily determine legislature.

Background:

The rules for opposed skill checks (PHB 178) say that both parties roll checks.

The rules for passive checks (PHB 179) say that they are a form of opposed check in which only the active participant rolls, the passive participant using a fixed skill value as though they had taken 10, and that they're used whenever a character is not 'actively' using a skill.

I put actively in quotes because I'm not sure whether it means 'intentionally' or 'consciously', or whether it carries the same mechanical meaning as 'active'.

Both sections use Stealth vs. Perception as an illustrative example, with the passive checks section specifying a situation in which those making the Perception checks aren't actively looking around for danger, and opposed checks specifying a situation where a character is hiding while another tries to see them.

The Stealth skill description (PHB 188) describes Stealth as an opposed check, Stealth vs. Perception, and usually this check is taken in one character's turn at the moment they try to perform an action stealthily.

The Perception skill description (PHB 186) states that the DM usually uses your passive Perception check, and that you need to take a standard action to use the skill actively.

Question:

When making an opposed Stealth vs. Perception check during combat, do those opposing the Stealth check use their passive Perception, or roll Perception checks? Or is it up to the DM based on what the players have described their characters as doing? For example, would characters who say they are alert to danger make 'active' checks even though it's not their turn, while characters who aren't looking out for danger would make passive checks?

If the latter, does this require any action on their turn? Related to that, is an active check only a check you can make using an action on your own turn, or does 'active' just mean 'you roll the dice' and you can make an active check in someone else's turn if you have to?
​

Heh - lots of leaning all ways. But... okay?

BTW There's been a CSR on which result you use: you use the higher result. Actually it might bear on this... if only I could locate the question! Here's the answer

'The DM can choose to use either active or passive perception checks to notice Stealth. Even if an active check fails, if passive would succeed the check succeeds. An active roll is just a chance to roll better.'

-vk

 

[clearstream]

BTW is there anything to tell us 'active' checks are made only in your own turn?

EDIT and check the wording on PHB26.

-vk