Stealth - How does it work?

[Bayuer]

Hi. I don't realy sure how this skill works. So i have a cover on concelement. I use stealth and then go from cover/concel. In rules it's said that when a target have a line of sight to me i clear terrain he can see me automaticaly. What happen with distract action? When I got a succes on a Stealth i can go and attack target and gain combat adventage? It's realy confusing.

PS. Srr for my english it's not my primal language.

 

[Sashi]

Stealth is a very difficult thing to get to work in an RPG. There's a fine line to walk between "you can never hide" and "with this skill check I become invisible!"

3E and 4E further complicated this by removing facing, which means that it's impossible to sneak up "behind" someone.

The 4E rules are as non-confusing as any of the D&D stealth rules have been: If you have cover, you may hide. If you don't have cover, you are seen.

The distraction rule from Bluff says that you may make a stealth check to hide if you distract your targets. This means that you use a standard action to distract, and then move to cover and hide behind it. The important thing is that your opponents don't know which cover-providing item he's hiding behind.

I don't particularly like these rules, and will probably houserule them a bit, but they're pretty clear.

 

[Harr]

Stealth is certainly a kludgy one to wrap your head around.

First of all, unless youre actually fighting in the darkness with no light sources, you're not going to hide, stealth-walk right up to someone and sneak-attack. The primary way to do that (sneak-attack in melee) is simply with flanking. When people talk about getting cover, hiding with stealth, then sneak-attacking it's usually talking about ranged sneak attacks with a crossbow.

Basically you need to get into cover without the target being aware of you. Once you're behind cover, you can attack stealthily. There is no separate "hiding" rool, you roll stealth as part of whatever action you want to do stealthily. So if:

- You're behind cover
- Your opponent is unaware that you are there
- You attack 'stealthily', with a Stealth check included in the action, and you succeed this Stealth check
- You make your attack roll with +2 combat advantage and succeed

...then you get a ranged sneak-attack, do your extra damage and from that moment you lose your hiding your target is aware of you.

Whether you can now go back into hiding at the same spot or must now choose another different spot to try hiding again, is the subject of some debate in another thread. But that's the basic

 

[fnwc]

3E and 4E further complicated this by removing facing, which means that it's impossible to sneak up "behind" someone.

Actually, this isn't true in 4E.

In combat, all participants are assumed to be looking in all directions (e.g., no facing).

However, out of combat it is possible to 'sneak up behind someone'. You still have to make a roll (footsteps, etc) but you wouldn't need cover/concealment in this case. This is pretty much what it says in the PHB (lucky me too, I guess. overstock.com sent the books out early and I got mine).

 

[cdrcjsn]

Basically you need to get into cover without the target being aware of you.

Not true. They can be aware of you. The monster can watch you walk around the corner. As soon as you hit the corner and gain cover from them, you can attempt a stealth check.

- You're behind cover
- Your opponent is unaware that you are there
- You attack 'stealthily', with a Stealth check included in the action, and you succeed this Stealth check
- You make your attack roll with +2 combat advantage and succeed

...then you get a ranged sneak-attack, do your extra damage and from that moment you lose your hiding your target is aware of you.

That second part about the opponent not aware of you is nowhere in the skill description. The Stealth check once you gain cover/concealement causes them to lose track of you, letting you hide. The only requirement for making the attempt is Cover, Concealment or Distraction. Lack of awareness is nowhere in that list.

So yeah, even if they know your exact square, as long as you have cover/concealment, you can make a Stealth attempt as part of your move.

Whether you can now go back into hiding at the same spot or must now choose another different spot to try hiding again, is the subject of some debate in another thread. But that's the basic

Once you attack, you are no longer hiding, this is explicitly stated in the skill. You'll need another move action to attempt to hide again.

 

[fnwc]

The distraction rule from Bluff says that you may make a stealth check to hide if you distract your targets. This means that you use a standard action to distract, and then move to cover and hide behind it. The important thing is that your opponents don't know which cover-providing item he's hiding behind.

I'm not sure this is true. Once per encounter, Bluff allows you to use an opposed Bluff check to distract an enemy and make a Stealth check to hide.

Under Stealth, you may attempt to hide from a "Distracted Creature" even when you don't have cover and concealment.

Under the heading "Cover or Concealment": Without distraction, you must have cover or concealment to make a Stealth check. If a creature has unblocked line of sight to you (you lack cover/concealment) the creature automatically sees you.

I don't think that conditional cover scenarios like Allies will provide cover from an Enemy for purposes of making a Stealth check (since this type of cover only applies to range attacks, for example).

Combining "Distracted Creature" and "Cover or Concealment" together, this means you can Bluff without cover/concealment and if successful, immediately hide using a Stealth roll. However, it seems that you will need to move to cover/concealment or you're automatically seen, which really makes you wonder why you didn't just move to cover and then try to hide (and thus avoiding the Bluff check entirely).

Further confusing the issue is the fact that making a Stealth check is part of whatever action you're trying to perform stealthily. While sneaking, this would be a move action. Take this scenario, however:

A Rogue is fighting an Ogre. The Rogue takes his turn, attacks the Ogre (standard action), moves behind a corner (move action and achieves cover) then drinks a potion (minor action). The Rogue now wants to make a Stealth check to hide so he can have Combat Advantage on his next turn. What kind of action is this? A move action? IMO, it needs to have some kind of cost, just to prevent characters from making Stealth checks every round. Of course, by following the RAW, even if the Rogue makes his Stealth against the Ogre's passive perception, if the Ogre moves around the corner as well such that the Rogue no longer has cover, he will be seen.

Confused yet?

 

[marune]

When you get a Stealth check thanks to a sucessfull Bluff check, you don't need cover, because the opponent is considered distracted.

Same thing as the "sneak behind" out of combat example.

 

[fnwc]

When you get a Stealth check thanks to a sucessfull Bluff check, you don't need cover, because the opponent is considered distracted.

Same thing as the "sneak behind" out of combat example.

If this is the case, then you're saying that someone can Bluff to distract then make a Stealth check and hide from an opponent in the middle of a bare room? I'm not sure this makes too much sense.

 

[astriemer]

maybe hide is not the right word

If this is the case, then you're saying that someone can Bluff to distract then make a Stealth check and hide from an opponent in the middle of a bare room? I'm not sure this makes too much sense.

I think it would help to not get hung up on the word 'hide.' What is happening is that you are distracting the opponent and getting the benefits that you would get if you were hidden for a moment. Thus you could, while he's looking the other way, move to cover/conceal and remain hidden. I believe that for example, you would not provoke an opportunity attack for moving (rather than shifting) while hidden. But unless you find cover, he's immediately going to turn back and notice you standing there.

Potentially, you might have bonuses that only kick in while hidden which would apply in this case. Like if you had a power that allowed you to say automatically damage adjacent creatures who can't see you or something like that.

 

[fnwc]

I think it would help to not get hung up on the word 'hide.' What is happening is that you are distracting the opponent and getting the benefits that you would get if you were hidden for a moment. Thus you could, while he's looking the other way, move to cover/conceal and remain hidden.

I agree, as this is basically what I said in a previous post.

My question though is why bother wasting a Bluff standard action in order to 'hide in plain sight' and then be forced to move to cover to remain hidden when you could just move to cover and make a Stealth check instead?

I'm making the assumption here that the enemy doesn't remain distracted for more than the current round.