Stealth - How does it work?

[Xorn]

The reason people want to hide behind cover and attack with range is for the sneak attack. Once you have done so once, the target is aware of you (even if they can't see you directly), so you don't have combat advantage now. (Only true invisibility would do that.)

Stealth specifically states that you only get combat advantage if they aren't aware of you. Running behind some crates or around a corner does not make someone unaware if they watched you go there. If you can Bluff to distract first, or then use stealth to move away successfully (in other words, make the enemy lose track of you) then I'd grant combat advantage again.

I'm still waiting for someone to tackle Hide in Plain Sight (Rogue Utility 16).

It's an encounter power that lets a rogue who is already hidden turn invisible until they leave their current square. No other action they perform makes them visible.

 

[marune]

I agree, as this is basically what I said in a previous post.

My question though is why bother wasting a Bluff standard action in order to 'hide in plain sight' and then be forced to move to cover to remain hidden when you could just move to cover and make a Stealth check instead?

I'm making the assumption here that the enemy doesn't remain distracted for more than the current round.

To get Combat advantage and Sneak attack dmg dices for an attack ?

Your assumption is wrong : "You avoid notice, unheard and hidden from view. If you later attack or shout, you’re no longer hidden."

 

[Harr]

Not true. They can be aware of you. The monster can watch you walk around the corner. As soon as you hit the corner and gain cover from them, you can attempt a stealth check.

That second part about the opponent not aware of you is nowhere in the skill description. The Stealth check once you gain cover/concealement causes them to lose track of you, letting you hide. The only requirement for making the attempt is Cover, Concealment or Distraction. Lack of awareness is nowhere in that list.

PHB Stealth skill description:

Combat Advantage: You have combat advantage against a target that isn't aware of you.

You need Combat Advantage to make a sneak-attack. We're talking about making sneak attacks here, not just hiding and being stealthy for the sheer fun of it

Although I guess hiding for the sake of hiding could have its uses, such as when you're badly wounded and an enemy is gunning for you.

And no, simply being hidden does -not- grant you Combat Advantage. If that was the case, the skill description would have said that.

Once you attack, you are no longer hiding, this is explicitly stated in the skill. You'll need another move action to attempt to hide again.

You can hide again, you can't try to sneak-attack again from the same spot, since the target is now aware of where you are.

I could be wrong of course, but I think it's a reasonable interpretation.

My question though is why bother wasting a Bluff standard action in order to 'hide in plain sight' and then be forced to move to cover to remain hidden when you could just move to cover and make a Stealth check instead?

Because if you didn't distract first, then the enemy saw you getting behind cover, therefore the enemy is aware of you, and you don't gain combat advantage, and don't get the chance to sneak-attack.

Why try to hide at all then, if the enemy's aware of you? Because when the enemy has no line of sight to you, they get -5 to their attacks against you.. You might get other benefits I'm overlooking, but one benefit I know you do -not- automatically get is Combat Advantage.

 

[cdrcjsn]

PHB Stealth skill description:


You need Combat Advantage to make a sneak-attack. We're talking about making sneak attacks here, not just hiding and being stealthy for the sheer fun of it

Please read Stealth again. Look at the Success result for Stealth. If you read that and you still say that the opponent is aware of you...then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[fnwc]

And no, simply being hidden does -not- grant you Combat Advantage. If that was the case, the skill description would have said that.

Because if you didn't distract first, then the enemy saw you getting behind cover, therefore the enemy is aware of you, and you don't gain combat advantage, and don't get the chance to sneak-attack.

The PHB specifically states that "Unless a creature is distracted, you must have cover against concealment from a creature to make a Stealth check". This implies that it can be done from any cover or concealment on for a creature that is not distracted.

The "Success" result states you avoid notice, unheard and hidden from view.

This is followed by "Combat Advantage", which says that you have combat advantage against a target that is unaware of you.

I don't think they would put "Combat Advantage" in the Stealth section if it didn't apply. Furthermore, on page 280 under "Combat Advantage" it specifically refers to "Unaware of you" being a state that refers back to the Stealth skill.

What you're arguing is that you can be hidden from an enemy that is aware of you, so Combat Advantage does not apply. I might agree with you, except that I cannot find any evidence that substantiate this claim.

 

[Harr]

Please read Stealth again. Look at the Success result for Stealth. If you read that and you still say that the opponent is aware of you...then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I understand what you're saying.

However, I think that that makes it too easy, and besides, why go to the trouble of separating out another Combat Advantage subtitle where they talk about awareness. Why not just go Success: You are hidden from view, you make no noise, and you gain Combat Advantage?

Still, you're right, I may be over-complicating it, and this is not something we can settle without an offical response, so, agreed

 

[fnwc]

To get Combat advantage and Sneak attack dmg dices for an attack ?

Your assumption is wrong : "You avoid notice, unheard and hidden from view. If you later attack or shout, you’re no longer hidden."

Just to understand your meaning: you're saying that a successful Bluff check allows you to remain concealed with a successful Stealth check without further Cover or Concealment? Furthermore, the 'stealthed' creature can perform any other (reasonable) actions other than attacking or shouting and remain hidden (e.g., moving)?

That would be... powerful. It would also seem to indicate an ability beyond a purely physical source.

 

[Bayuer]

So if i rule that you autmaticaly lost your combat adventage whe you move out from your cover/concelment square to a square that don't have such a feature is it correct? Also diversion to hide give you time to cover until end of your turn or you lost benefit of it.

It's so confusing. Let's make it all clear:

1. you are not hidden when you don't have cover/concealement unless you distracted enemy
2. if you distracted enemy (works only once per encounter) you can become hidden and maintain it until being spoted or if you attack enemy
3. if you go from a fight to a sqaure that gives you cover/conceal you can make stealth check to become hidden
4. you can be hidden until you attack or creatures make sucesfull Perception check to locate you, but if you was hidding while fighting creature can have clues where you are and can go and search you (unless you distracted that creature and it have no clue where you are)

 

[fnwc]

So if i rule that you autmaticaly lost your combat adventage whe you move out from your cover/concelment square to a square that don't have such a feature is it correct? Also diversion to hide give you time to cover until end of your turn or you lost benefit of it.

It's so confusing. Let's make it all clear:

1. you are not hidden when you don't have cover/concealement unless you distracted enemy
2. if you distracted enemy (works only once per encounter) you can become hidden and maintain it until being spoted or if you attack enemy
3. if you go from a fight to a sqaure that gives you cover/conceal you can make stealth check to become hidden
4. you can be hidden until you attack or creatures make sucesfull Perception check to locate you, but if you was hidding while fighting creature can have clues where you are and can go and search you (unless you distracted that creature and it have no clue where you are)

Sounds right... although it's important to note that you can be hidden from one creature and not another. The condition of being behind cover for purposes of Stealth can apply to one creature but not another.

2 doesn't make logical sense to me in certain situations:

Let's say a Rogue is fighting an Orc in a room with no cover or concealment. The Rogue makes a successful Bluff check, and then makes a successful Stealth check.

Still in combat, the Orc's turn comes up and doesn't see the Rogue standing 2 squares away from him in a bare room? D&D has a lot of abstract qualities, but this would seem to indicate that Stealth is not a skill derived from a purely physical source (i.e., it's magical). Of course, the Orc could make an active Perception to try and locate the Rogue, but it still doesn't make much sense, IMO.

Hopefully someone gives an official answer on this at some point.