Stealth in Combat Question (my players please do not read)

[Admiral Caine]

Again,

If you're playing in my game, please don't read this.
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Thanks everybody. I need some rules help. Or rather, I'm looking for a second opinion, because I've gotten one.. but I'm not totally sold on the answer. If you know where this question originated from, please don't point it out.

I can re-phrase the question without any association with the source.

In this situation, the creatures have superior cover and are using Stealth Rolls. It is outdoor wooded scene, lighting is not bright but neither is it dark, more like well shaded daylight.

Assuming the Monsters not spotted by the PC's Passive Perception, the strategy is that they will shoot bows with combat advantage.

Then immediately after they shoot, the creatures are no longer hidden. Per the rules. Understood.

Then they can take their move action, and at the end of their move action they can attempt Stealth rolls again. Because the tree line they're in affords superior cover. Understand that too.

But what happens in between those two steps concerns me.

Once they attack, do I immediately reveal the square the creature is standing in, and the direction that they're heading towards? (Because one makes your Stealth roll again at the end of your move action).

Or do I reveal nothing at all, except if the PC's Passive Perception pick up on the creature's new opposed Stealth roll?

Or some compromise between those two options.

 

[Kordeth]

Once they attack, do I immediately reveal the square the creature is standing in, and the direction that they're heading towards? (Because one makes your Stealth roll again at the end of your move action).

Or do I reveal nothing at all, except if the PC's Passive Perception pick up on the creature's new opposed Stealth roll?

Or some compromise between those two options.

When they attack, you reveal their location at the end of the attack action. They remain visible until they make a successful Stealth check at the end of their next move action. So, barring any special powers that allow them to remain hidden after making an attack or take an action that involves attacking and doing something else, your first scenario is correct.

 

[DEFCON 1]

The only downside to the rules that Kordeth mentions is that since the Stealth occurs at the end of the Move action, the players now know which square the enemy ends in... thereby making the whole "players need to try and guess the square the concealed enemy is" point moot when they come to try and find/attack them on their next turn. However, as written this is what happens.

If this bothers you at all, you may want to institute a houserule that says that if the enemy does in fact make its Stealth check, that it comes into effect one space before the end of an enemy's move. So that at the very least, that one final movement step can be done while stealthed, allowing for an enemy to be in nine potential squares (thus actually forcing your players to guess their location).

This is what I do personally, and depending on how good the Perception check of the characters is, I will also cut down the number squares he might've moved into so the guess has a better chance. It works well for our group.

 

[Mengu]

Just to note, if the PC's are unaware of the hidden Monsters, the way I would run this is everyone rolls initiative after initial positioning and before any attacks happen. All PC's are surprised (since their passive Perceptions did not beat the hide check of the monsters), they don't get to act during the surprise round. Monsters take their surprise round, making attacks. They can only take one action so they can't shoot and move (unless they have a standard action which allows this). When their initiative comes around again, they can move and make stealth checks to hide. But this gives the PC's a chance to react to the enemy before they can hide.

 

[Admiral Caine]

Just to note, if the PC's are unaware of the hidden Monsters, the way I would run this is everyone rolls initiative after initial positioning and before any attacks happen. All PC's are surprised (since their passive Perceptions did not beat the hide check of the monsters), they don't get to act during the surprise round. Monsters take their surprise round, making attacks. They can only take one action so they can't shoot and move (unless they have a standard action which allows this). When their initiative comes around again, they can move and make stealth checks to hide. But this gives the PC's a chance to react to the enemy before they can hide.

A completely valid way to do it...

What I didn't describe is that there are minions present who are not hidden, who do act on the first round. The original creatures I mentioned are playing at being snipers.

I didn't mention the minions because I didn't want to overcomplicate my question.. but otherwise I would completely agree with you.

******

Thanks to all respondencts! Defcon, I especially like your little house rule idea, that offers a little something for both sides.

 

[Vegepygmy]

If this bothers you at all, you may want to institute a houserule that says that if the enemy does in fact make its Stealth check, that it comes into effect one space before the end of an enemy's move.

Personally, I would rule that it comes into effect as soon as the enemy has superior cover or total concealment. But I agree that by strict RAW, the enemy remains unhidden until it makes its Stealth check at the end of a move action.

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

I'd be careful about giving all monsters a default level of rogue-like sneakiness. Doing that (moving to a square and hiding without the enemy being aware of where you are after an attack) as a rogue costs actions and feats/powers, and if you're not allowing Fleeting Ghost to allow a check to hide in cover/concealment, monsters are going to be doing it more often than the rogue when you use the same houserule for both, as the monsters pre-planned positions are usually (if not almost always) going to be better than those available for the rogue. It can make a situation where the rogue is outshined a lot at what he is supposed to be great at (hiding/sneaking).

 

[Admiral Caine]

I'd be careful about giving all monsters a default level of rogue-like sneakiness. Doing that (moving to a square and hiding without the enemy being aware of where you are after an attack) as a rogue costs actions and feats/powers, and if you're not allowing Fleeting Ghost to allow a check to hide in cover/concealment, monsters are going to be doing it more often than the rogue when you use the same houserule for both, as the monsters pre-planned positions are usually (if not almost always) going to be better than those available for the rogue. It can make a situation where the rogue is outshined a lot at what he is supposed to be great at (hiding/sneaking).

Gosh... I hate internet jerks and I don't want to be one. But that was all one single sentence and I'm still a little confused after a couple readings.

Let me reply to what I think you're saying and make a few points.

First.. I agree with you in spirit. I wouldn't pull this trick on players on a regular basis. This is a set up from a published adventure (whose name I would rather avoid mentioning for reasons of my own). To do this all the time would rob rogues of some of their coolness. But doing it once shouldn't be an issue. Its a good tactical lesson for the players to adopt themselves!

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean about disallowing Fleeting Ghost...? I don't disallow it. In fact if I had a rogue in the party I would welcome them to take that power. The monsters in this scenario don't have that Power, they're only using the Stealth Skill.

In fact, there is no houserule being discussed by me, other than what what Defcon suggested.

Everything the monsters are doing is just a straight standard usage of the Stealth Skill. My question pertained to how do I fairly and consistantly describe what happens to the players. So that the monsters are getting fair usage of the Stealth skill, but I'm not cheating the players of information they should have.

 

[Syrsuro]

They know where the attack came from (reveal location).

As soon as the creature moves and regains total concealment, they lose sight of the creature (although they may know the direction it was headed in).

If their passive perception was sufficient to beat the creatures stealth roll, they know where the creature ended up (although they still cannot see it).

If their passive perception was not sufficient, they do not know where it ended up although by spending a minor action on their turn they can attempt to determine where the creature ended up.

Question: Is the only concern whether or not the players can identify the final location (so they can target the square) or is there some reason it matters exactly when they lost track of the creatures mid-move?



Carl

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

Gosh... I hate internet jerks and I don't want to be one. But that was all one single sentence and I'm still a little confused after a couple readings.

Yeah, it is a long sentence. Sorry. It's a little complex, and I talk about Stealth a lot on these forums and sometimes I assume things that were discussed a lot in other threads are common knowledge.

Let me reply to what I think you're saying and make a few points.

First.. I agree with you in spirit. I wouldn't pull this trick on players on a regular basis. This is a set up from a published adventure (whose name I would rather avoid mentioning for reasons of my own). To do this all the time would rob rogues of some of their coolness. But doing it once shouldn't be an issue. Its a good tactical lesson for the players to adopt themselves!

I think we are saying the same thing here. Using the stealth skill at the level in which most monsters can isn't an issue. The problem comes when, because of terrain situations and the ideas proposed by others in the thread to allow the monsters to obfuscate their final location, all monsters are suddenly hiding in a way the players can't duplicate because the terrain to do this tends to favor the monsters.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean about disallowing Fleeting Ghost...? I don't disallow it. In fact if I had a rogue in the party I would welcome them to take that power. The monsters in this scenario don't have that Power, they're only using the Stealth Skill.

There are two readings of Fleeting Ghost. One, the RAW reading, is that you move and make a stealth check and on the check you make via the power, you take no penalty for movement. The practical result of that, post-errata, is that if you make the check in a square with any cover or concealment, you're hidden, and remain hidden because you have cover or concealment.

The other reading, which is a result of an early Customer Service ruling, is that you just don't take a -5 penalty on stealth checks for movement. Customer service later contradicted that, and when someone presented the contradictory answers, stated that there is no official answer and that they would pass it on for an FAQ or update. There hasn't been an FAQ or update so far, and in the accidental release of propsed updates in the compendium, none was listed for Fleeting Ghost. A proposed update was listed for Shadow Stride, which was included in the last update, as well as Chameleon, which wasn't included in the last update.

Martial power introduced the language of "If you have any cover or concealment after this shift, you can make a Stealth check as a free action." It is in the 7th level encounter power, From the Shadows, which allows a rogue to shift 2 squares while remaining hidden, make an attack with combat advantage, then shift and hide again. As that is a standard action, the rogue could then move stealthily (aka sneak) to another location other than that in which he made his Stealth check. It is the closest thing to what the houserules would allow anyone using the Stealth skill to do (hide at the end of a move with nobody being aware of your location without needing to expend an action or something).From the Shadows is also redundant in its phrasing with regard to gaining combat advantage, as that is part of the revised Stealth rules stating you retain the benefits of being hidden until you complete your action.

A recent Dragon inroduced a paragon power allowing one to move and make a hide check after spending an action point with the additional line of, "(provided you have superior cover or total concealment from that target when you end your movement)." And Shadow Stride no reads: "You must be hidden to use this power. You can move your speed and must end your movement in a space where you can remain hidden. Then make a Stealth check with no penalty for moving. If the check succeeds, you remain hidden during the movement, even if you have no cover or concealment during it." So there remains precedent that limitations on a check would be included in a power description.

In a game using the RAW reading of Fleeting Ghost, rogues can hide more often, which balances out the way that monsters are easy to place in locations that allow them to use stealth whenever the DM wants them to even when they are limited to Superior Cover/Total Concealment.

I've been in multiple campaigns/arcs that used the literal reading of Fleeting Ghost, with no balance issues, playing as a rogue or playing with one. Despite making it easier to hide, situations and terrain still conspire to leave a Rogue unable to use Stealth at-will. And since most cover/concealment comes in the field of battle rather than on the edges like Superior Cover and Total Concealment (chuck and duck from the corner/hallway/doorway), it keeps the action more interesting.

In fact, there is no houserule being discussed by me, other than what Defcon suggested.

The houserules Defcon and vegepygmy mentioned were the houserules to which I was referring. Which was why I posted in the thread without replying to you specifically, but to the thread in general.

Everything the monsters are doing is just a straight standard usage of the Stealth Skill. My question pertained to how do I fairly and consistantly describe what happens to the players. So that the monsters are getting fair usage of the Stealth skill, but I'm not cheating the players of information they should have.

The fair, by the rules, answer is that they know where the creature moved to, as the creature is not unseen/silent along the path of its movement, but they can't see it. They take a -5 penalty on attacks that they can make (that aren't area attacks). So, even hearing/seeing the rustle of branches as the creature moved into a new position, the characters have some real limitations on what they can do to the hidden target. This is particularly true for rogues and other martial characters whose area effect powers contain the "you can see" requirement in the targeting line. And Rangers can't designate an opponent they can't see as their quarry.