Stealth in Combat Question (my players please do not read)

[PeelSeel2]

Keep the rules as they are. Give the monsters a power.

Camouflaged Sniper (at-will, standard action)
If the attacker has superior cover, it can make a ranged basic attack with combat advantage without revealing it's position.

If the characters, on their turn, want to make opposed stealth/perception rolls to spot, that is fine.

Done!!

 

[Admiral Caine]

Yeah, it is a long sentence. Sorry. It's a little complex, and I talk about Stealth a lot on these forums and sometimes I assume things that were discussed a lot in other threads are common knowledge.

Well I do appreciate the civil discourse! You've given me two tons of stuff to think about.. because I'm preparing to run my first 4E game for players who have not run 4E before (tomorrow, Thursday night no less). So I am a noob.

You could have gotten mad at me, but I appreciate your elaboration on what you were saying. Let's move forward...

I think we are saying the same thing here. Using the stealth skill at the level in which most monsters can isn't an issue. The problem comes when, because of terrain situations and the ideas proposed by others in the thread to allow the monsters to obfuscate their final location, all monsters are suddenly hiding in a way the players can't duplicate because the terrain to do this tends to favor the monsters.

I agree with this. In discussing this, I've presented just the bare bones situation, and every post to follow I have had to dole out a little bit more information.

This is definitely an ambush on the PCs. The monsters are hiding in the woods, with minions as look-outs. The minions keep the players busy for a round and then the hidden snipers open fire. The PCs are getting jumped.

It is unfair, or poor design, to do this routinely throughout a campaign for exactly the reason you've stated. The players don't often get to use the terrain to their advantage in the same way. Having said that, I think it is a rare encounter and fills the criteria of an ambush. The monsters have selected the terrain to their advantage.

Again, I wouldn't do this all the time either.

Let's move on.. This business about the rogue is interesting because I don't actually have a rogue in the party. However this is a one-off adventure to see if the group likes 4E as a system, so I might have a rogue next time.

(EDIT: 20 minutes later.. after studying the rogue powers)

There are two readings of Fleeting Ghost. One, the RAW reading, is that you move and make a stealth check and on the check you make via the power, you take no penalty for movement. The practical result of that, post-errata, is that if you make the check in a square with any cover or concealment, you're hidden, and remain hidden because you have cover or concealment.

Just to be clear.. yes.. You need superior cover or total concealment if you're in combat. Out of combat you just need 'some' cover or concealment.

But yeah.. I follow you so far.

The other reading, which is a result of an early Customer Service ruling, is that you just don't take a -5 penalty on stealth checks for movement. Customer service later contradicted that, and when someone presented the contradictory answers, stated that there is no official answer and that they would pass it on for an FAQ or update. There hasn't been an FAQ or update so far, and in the accidental release of proposed updates in the compendium, none was listed for Fleeting Ghost. A proposed update was listed for Shadow Stride, which was included in the last update, as well as Chameleon, which wasn't included in the last update.

Okay... Starting to make sense. Seems like they had it right the first time and then somebody later on goofed, and for whatever reason they just haven't clarified. I don't see where the catch would be to the first answer, that you wouldn't want to affirm it..

Martial power introduced the language of "If you have any cover or concealment after this shift, you can make a Stealth check as a free action." It is in the 7th level encounter power, From the Shadows, which allows a rogue to shift 2 squares while remaining hidden, make an attack with combat advantage, then shift and hide again. As that is a standard action, the rogue could then move stealthily (aka sneak) to another location other than that in which he made his Stealth check. It is the closest thing to what the houserules would allow anyone using the Stealth skill to do (hide at the end of a move with nobody being aware of your location without needing to expend an action or something).From the Shadows is also redundant in its phrasing with regard to gaining combat advantage, as that is part of the revised Stealth rules stating you retain the benefits of being hidden until you complete your action.

I see. Let me spell out the steps to make sure I understand.

1.) You're entitled to shift 2 squares. If you're hidden, you retain the benefits (which I agree is redundant, but an innocuous redundancy as it sort of gives you a hint as the appropriate tactic this power is intended to be used for).

2.) Make your attack.

3.) Shift 2 more squares.
3A.) If you end up in a square that offers any concealment or cover, then you can make a free stealth roll. Which also seems redundant, because can't anybody make a Stealth roll at the end of a movement if they have cover and concealment? Unless that is your point!!? In which case Martial Powers is being redundant twice, or its trying to detail a feature of an exception based power. I do lean towards it being redundant twice...

4.) Then once hidden in a new spot, as a separate move action to follow they could theoretically move two more squares away from that new spot without having to make another Stealth Skill Roll. The opponent would then really have no idea where the rogue was. You would still need superior Cover and Concealment though, even if you didn't start out with it before you attacked, because by then you're definitely in combat.[/quote]

Moving on...

A recent Dragon introduced a paragon power allowing one to move and make a hide check after spending an action point with the additional line of, "(provided you have superior cover or total concealment from that target when you end your movement)."

Out of curiosity, was it a Rogue Paragon Power, or belonging to another class? Was it a combat based power, or meant to be utilitarian in nature?

And Shadow Stride no reads: "You must be hidden to use this power. You can move your speed and must end your movement in a space where you can remain hidden. Then make a Stealth check with no penalty for moving. If the check succeeds, you remain hidden during the movement, even if you have no cover or concealment during it." So there remains precedent that limitations on a check would be included in a power description.

I see. Okay.................. I looked that up on the Compendium too. Yeah, that sort of makes your point right there. It has the benefit of Fleeting Ghost, but adds that if you're successful that you remain hidden through the whole process. And that's an exception based power.

Okay, I think you just convinced me.

In a game using the RAW reading of Fleeting Ghost, rogues can hide more often, which balances out the way that monsters are easy to place in locations that allow them to use stealth whenever the DM wants them to even when they are limited to Superior Cover/Total Concealment.

I've been in multiple campaigns/arcs that used the literal reading of Fleeting Ghost, with no balance issues, playing as a rogue or playing with one. Despite making it easier to hide, situations and terrain still conspire to leave a Rogue unable to use Stealth at-will. And since most cover/concealment comes in the field of battle rather than on the edges like Superior Cover and Total Concealment (chuck and duck from the corner/hallway/doorway), it keeps the action more interesting.

I see where you're coming from now. Monsters sort of have their cake and eat it too because the terrain almost always favors them- providing opportunity to use the Skill to its greatest potential because the Cover/Concealment is always convenient. In theory, Rogues should have parity, but in practical application they don't because they can never choose the terrain.. The terrain is always inconvenient for them.

The houserules Defcon and vegepygmy mentioned were the houserules to which I was referring. Which was why I posted in the thread without replying to you specifically, but to the thread in general.

I didn't take your reply personally.. but yeah, I see why you differed in your opinion with them now.

The fair, by the rules, answer is that they know where the creature moved to, as the creature is not unseen/silent along the path of its movement, but they can't see it. They take a -5 penalty on attacks that they can make (that aren't area attacks). So, even hearing/seeing the rustle of branches as the creature moved into a new position, the characters have some real limitations on what they can do to the hidden target. This is particularly true for rogues and other martial characters whose area effect powers contain the "you can see" requirement in the targeting line. And Rangers can't designate an opponent they can't see as their quarry.

Gotchya. I see what you're saying. The fact that the creature is hidden and that there is -5 to hit, and that the creature can not be seen (which messes up some powers), is penalty enough. Not knowing the exact square the creature is in is really too much of an advantage for the monster.

You made your case quite well. I think I agree with you.

Thank you for taking the time to articulate it. You've helped me understand the rules quite a bit better.

 

[Admiral Caine]

Keep the rules as they are. Give the monsters a power.

Camouflaged Sniper (at-will, standard action)
If the attacker has superior cover, it can make a ranged basic attack with combat advantage without revealing it's position.

If the characters, on their turn, want to make opposed stealth/perception rolls to spot, that is fine.

Done!!

I appreciate the help.. That would patch the problem certainly, but I was looking for a richer understanding of the rules.

But I think this is solved for me. I know how I will proceed now.