D&D 5E Stealth, Spot, and Listen

[Wyckedemus]

The reason why I feel there needs to be symmetry (regardless of whether that means 2 skills vs 2 skills or perception vs stealth) is because it makes stealth far too good. If I'm only required to buy one ability to do something, but everyone else is required to buy two abilities to oppose me at doing that something, I feel that heavily favors the person who only needs to buy the one thing because he's spending half as much. If he spends the same amount, it's being placed into one pot instead of two, so he'll be potentially twice as skilled. This was already bad enough in some 3.5 situations; in a system where the math is more flat (which I applaud,) it makes a bigger bonus even more useful.

In theory, I like having 2 skills for sneaking around and 2 for observing your surroundings. However, after considering that D&D doesn't have facing -nor is ever likely to as a default assumption- I think it makes the most sense to simply have 4E style perception and stealth. If a particular race is good at hearing things, simply give them a small bonus to perception checks when trying to hear or detect a sound; if a particular race has really good eyes, simply give them a small bonus to perception checks when dealing with things they have line of sight to (or possibly reduce the penalties to spot they'd have for long distances.)

But that's not actually what is happening. No one has a serious advantage the way it is now. DDN currently depicts Hiding vs. Seeking as a Dexterity vs. Wisdom check. If you want to be better at hiding, you can take a single skill and have a bonus. We'll call that Sneak. If you want to be better at seeking someone, you can take a single skill that gives you a bonus in most circumstances (those that include both sight and sound). Pick either Spot or Listen. You don't *need* both most of the time. There is still only one contested roll, and no one has a serious advantage over the other.

Please keep in mind that while Sneak is the only "hiding" skill, it is pretty limited. It helps ability checks to avoid detection. That is it. Spot does more than one thing. It helps ability checks to find hidden people, and "notice" anything or anyone at any distance that the DM feels you have a shot of noticing (like on the other side of the river, or in a crowd, or seeing if someone picks a pocket, etc.) Listen affects ability checks to find hidden people, listen at doors and distances, and it helps with droppin' some eaves! If you bundle those together, it becomes a super skill. If you bundle Search and Sense Motive into them for a overall "Perception" skill, it gets even worse. You're effectively "trained" in Wisdom checks at that point.

I think the weight of the skills should be a serious factor to consider before starting with the needless symmetry.

YVMV

 

[Argyle King]

But that's not actually what is happening. No one has a serious advantage the way it is now. DDN currently depicts Hiding vs. Seeking as a Dexterity vs. Wisdom check. If you want to be better at hiding, you can take a single skill and have a bonus. We'll call that Sneak. If you want to be better at seeking someone, you can take a single skill that gives you a bonus in most circumstances (those that include both sight and sound). Pick either Spot or Listen. You don't *need* both most of the time. There is still only one contested roll, and no one has a serious advantage over the other.

Please keep in mind that while Sneak is the only "hiding" skill, it is pretty limited. It helps ability checks to avoid detection. That is it. Spot does more than one thing. It helps ability checks to find hidden people, and "notice" anything or anyone at any distance that the DM feels you have a shot of noticing (like on the other side of the river, or in a crowd, or seeing if someone picks a pocket, etc.) Listen affects ability checks to find hidden people, listen at doors and distances, and it helps with droppin' some eaves! If you bundle those together, it becomes a super skill. If you bundle Search and Sense Motive into them for a overall "Perception" skill, it gets even worse. You're effectively "trained" in Wisdom checks at that point.

I think the weight of the skills should be a serious factor to consider before starting with the needless symmetry.

YVMV

So 2 skills which apply "in most circumstances" versus 1 skill which applies in all circumstances...

 

[TarionzCousin]

I don't agree with this at all.

Nobody trains ALL their senses. In every single way they use them. They just don't.

Nobody?

 

[Wyckedemus]

So 2 skills which apply "in most circumstances" versus 1 skill which applies in all circumstances...

Sneak applies to all circumstances of avoiding detection. That is all.

Listen and Spot, however, do more than oppose Sneak. I provided a list of valid uses for each one that have nothing to do with Sneak. They each carry their own weight mechanically, as well as logically (taking into consideration natural aptitude for race, and how people are likely to train those skills, and that people are not commonly good at both.)

You also make it sound like you get more out of Sneak than you do out of Spot. I strongly disagree.

You think it is balanced if there is only one skill opposing another. I think that is the wrong balance to look at.

I think an all-rolled-into-one "Perception" skill is far too powerful/useful compared to Sneak, and is therefore unbalanced.