D&D 5E Stealth & that big Rock!

When he ducks back out from around the corner, all of the orcs immediately see where he is (since he no longer has concealment) and none of them are surprised. Once combat starts and your target is alert, you cannot get advantage from hiding unless you have some way of gaining concealment without making yourself visible, such as Invisibility.

-- The (above) is wrong isn't it ? Isn't that exactly what hiding is for. If you duck around a tree/corner or if you are a halfling (that big tall human).. if your Stealth roll beats the enemies passive perception you gain advantage on your first attack roll ?
 

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When he ducks back out from around the corner, all of the orcs immediately see where he is (since he no longer has concealment) and none of them are surprised. Once combat starts and your target is alert, you cannot get advantage from hiding unless you have some way of gaining concealment without making yourself visible, such as Invisibility.

-- The (above) is wrong isn't it ? Isn't that exactly what hiding is for. If you duck around a tree/corner or if you are a halfling (that big tall human).. if your Stealth roll beats the enemies passive perception you gain advantage on your first attack roll ?

No. The advantage comes from being unseen, whether you are hidden or not. The DM might rule that circumstances allow you to attack without being seen, such as if you are in an area of darkness and your target is illuminated. The DM can also rule that your target is distracted by something, being engaged in melee with an opponent for example, and so doesn't notice you peeking around the corner. In general, however, creatures in combat are aware of their surroundings and will see other creatures that are visible.
 

As per rules, attacking always removes the "hidden" completely, so only your first attack will gain the benefits from being hidden. And yes, you can hide again after that as long as the enemy doesn't see you clearly the moment you attempt to hide.

Hidden means you don't know the location of someone.
Invisible means you can't see someone.

The main difference between invisible and invisible+hidden is that if someone is just invisible, the attacker still knows the exact coordinates of the invisible target, whereas when the target is invisible+hidden, he will have to guess the location.

There's no real need to apply some kind of extra advantage for knowing the location here, because there's already a benefit written right into the basic rules! Because if you don't know a target's location you have to guess it and if you guess it wrong, it's an auto-miss. However, if the target is just invisible, you don't have to guess the location, it's assumed to be correct, so there's no risk of auto-miss. The attack is still at disadvantage, though.

If the target is invisible+hidden, but it's quite obvious where the target is because the obstacle it hides behind is small, then the advantage already is that it's easier to guess the correct location and thus avoiding an auto-miss.
 

Hiya!

Simple, really. Stealth stuff... invisible, hidden, etc... is left mostly up to the DM and players to decide how it will work in their game. I'm sorry, OP, but 5e isn't "like the other editions". I really can't believe I'm saying this again...but... stop thinking in 3.x/PF/4e terms. 5e is not an 'updated version' of 3.x/4e. It is a new game. It has new rules for handling stuff...primarily it has given back control of how the rules/game will work and run to the DM.

Personally, I run 'stealth' as "common sense" stuff first. If there is a big what-if factor, then I go to the rules and rolls. So, in my game, anyone ducking behind a corner in the hallway is "hidden" or otherwise "totally concealed". As soon as that character pops out to shoot, however, he isn't; there is no 'stealth' roll, there is no 'hidden' game mechanical magic-word that suddenly grants special attack powers to you. Sorry, the guys looking down the hall have their bows out and are thinking Crap...guy ducked behind the corner...keep your bow drawn...he could pop out any second.... They are not thinking Crap...guy ducked behind the corner...I guess he's gone...we can all relax now and put our weapons away.

In short, in my game...and, personally, how I think 5e's stealth rules are intended to be used... "common sense rulings" come before "what's in the book". That said, I can understand why some players and DMs are "unhappy" with the vagueness of the stealth rules. It's open to interpretation, and the DM has final say...a lot of players find that "uncomfortable" (as do some DM's). What it boils down to is that there are no "hard and fast rules" that cover every situation when the player says "I Hide!".

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

You see i allow hidden to apply for both attack as well swinging at the same time is possible or heck 1attack could be like.00003 of a second behind the other one. Provided the first attack hits if it misses well thats no advantage on 2nd attack for you.

As for the rogue coming from round the corner scenario it depends of facing of the orcs and just how engaged they are but if there's a entire warband im sure one of them would notice unless there was concealment from fog or some such if it were a halfling i would rule they could zip from one ally to the next but need to make a new hide roll at each one or if one guys is getting ganged up on hes to busy to concentrate on anything not in his immediate vicinity.
 

Yeah.. I am confused now ..lol
Halflings for example specifically state that they can hide behind people, and wild elves in natural terrain ... From what I have seen posted they can do this in combat...

So.. the human level 5 rogue ducks around the corner... Bonus action rolls a Stealth check (He can't be seen) .. he is not unseen and silent .. the orcs can no longer see or hear him = Hidden.
He then sneaks up to the corner, peaks around and shoots an orc.. Assuming he beat their passive percption wouldn't this mean he has advantage on his first attack ? Perhaps they were extra alert cause they saw him duck around the corner ( so they have advantage on their perception rolls ) ... but from the previous posts and others, I thought that was how this scenerio would play out ?
 

[MENTION=45197]pming[/MENTION]
While 5e allows put it into the DMs hands to decide when someone is concealed enough to attempt to hide and when someone is so obviously visible his hiding ends immediately, the stealth roll and the advantages of being hidden are still written right into the basic rules, so if you remove that you are actually house-ruling (which is fine, but not as you say how 5e is meant to be played - and you will just confuse people who just want to know how it works according to the rules).
There is a reason why it's not fully left to the DM and that's mostly balance. You will want to give some strategy to hiding while at the same time not make it by default the superior or less superior choice. A stealth roll gives you a risk vs. reward.

As DM you simply have to narrate these things so they don't feel dumb. I don't narrate "The halfling rogue moves behind the fighter and suddenly all the creatures wonder where he went", instead I narrate something more like "The rogue silently moves behind his allies back and forth until the creatures last track of him".
[MENTION=6798581]Azurewraith[/MENTION]
Rogues already deal more damage than any other class (on some levels), so allowing advantage to apply to all attacks is a quite powerful houserule.
[MENTION=6791461]Amatiel[/MENTION]
Halflings for example specifically state that they can hide behind people, and wild elves in natural terrain ... From what I have seen posted they can do this in combat...
Yes, they can. They need to use an action (or bonus action, if they are level 2+ rogues) to do so in combat.

So.. the human level 5 rogue ducks around the corner... Bonus action rolls a Stealth check (He can't be seen) .. he is not unseen and silent .. the orcs can no longer see or hear him = Hidden.
Assuming he won the stealth check against the passive perception of all enemies, then yes. It means the orcs don't know his location anymore.

He then sneaks up to the corner, peaks around and shoots an orc.. Assuming he beat their passive percption wouldn't this mean he has advantage on his first attack ?
Exactly, he has advantage on his first attack, after that everybody sees him clearly, so he's no longer hidden from anyone and everyone knows where he is.
 

-- The (above) is wrong isn't it ? Isn't that exactly what hiding is for. If you duck around a tree/corner or if you are a halfling (that big tall human).. if your Stealth roll beats the enemies passive perception you gain advantage on your first attack roll ?
Here's the relevant quote from the Basic Rules document:
Basic Rules said:
You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position. An invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.

In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen.
That's all there is about hiding in combat. The direct reading says that the orcs will see you as soon as you come out from behind the boulder, unless you're Invisible, because creatures in combat stay alert for danger from all directions. There is some room for interpretation from the DM, if you want to argue that your allies are creating enough of a distraction to make them forget to check over their collective shoulder to see you coming, but that seems like a pretty big stretch to me. The easier ruling, which seems better supported, is just that hiding in combat is only good if you plan to stay hidden - you can't use it to gain combat advantage during combat, so don't even bother. You could probably make a pretty good case if the orcs didn't know you were there, but I can't imagine them falling for that trick more than once; if they see the rogue vanish from combat and then reappear unexpectedly, there's no way they'd forget about him again.

The tricky part comes with halflings and elves, who have racial abilities that let them hide without being fully obscured. A halfling can be hidden behind the fighter, even though the fighter doesn't fully obscure the halfling - meaning that the halfling can still see the orc and doesn't need to come out from behind the fighter in order to make an attack.

It's kind of like a one-way mirror, where the halfling can see the orc but the orc can't see the halfling, even though the only thing between them is the fighter. At least, that seems to be the common consensus. Personally, I would probably say that the halfling has to come out from behind the fighter in order to get a clear shot, for the sake of simplicity and a consistent narrative.
 
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[MENTION=45197,]
[MENTION=6798581]Azurewraith[/MENTION]
Rogues already deal more damage than any other class (on some levels), so allowing advantage to apply to all attacks is a quite powerful houserule.
.

Its not that bad they only get sneak attack once and have are either dw(less damage than an archer) or taken a 5level multiclass sacrificing there sneak attack damage.
 

Hiya!

Simple, really. Stealth stuff... invisible, hidden, etc... is left mostly up to the DM and players to decide how it will work in their game. I'm sorry, OP, but 5e isn't "like the other editions". I really can't believe I'm saying this again...but... stop thinking in 3.x/PF/4e terms. 5e is not an 'updated version' of 3.x/4e. It is a new game. It has new rules for handling stuff...primarily it has given back control of how the rules/game will work and run to the DM.

Yeah, AIR while there are formal rules in the PHB, the DMG pretty much tells the GM to use his judgement on stealth. Personally I definitely give the hide & pop-up Rogue Advantage if he succeeds on the Stealth check and the monster wasn't already aware he was around. So eg a fight starts, Rogue emerges from cover & sneaks up on unaware monster - if he makes a Stealth check I'll give him Advantage on his first round of attacks.

5e works a lot better if you base your rulings on what's happening in-world, rather than treat it 4e style.
 

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