clearstream
(He, Him)
Being hidden using Stealth gives you Combat Advantage and obscures your exact position, until you are spotted.
1. If you have Cover or Concealment from any source you can use Stealth provided your DM deems the given situation appropriate. Your DM will tell you if you can make a check. A power such as Fleeting Ghost or a skill such as Bluff that explicitly grants you a Stealth check should qualify as appropriate. Using Stealth from a diversion can let you get hidden without Cover or Concealment, but see 8. below. You will need some way to stay hidden after the end of your turn. You can use your allies for Cover against ranged enemies, but in all cases your DM decides if you have Cover using common sense.
2. Roll your initial check to get hidden against your enemies' passive Perceptions. They don't need to do anything or roll any dice: you need to roll equal or better to beat them. You can hide using any appropriate move or minor action, but whatever action you use, that whole action has to qualify for Stealth. At the end of each of your subsequent turns, and whenever you take an immediate or opportunity action, make a new check against your enemies' passive Perceptions. If there are lightly obscured squares between an enemy and the hider, apply a -5 penalty to that enemy's Perception. Note that dim-light doesn't obscure or count for Concealment against those forms of sight.
3. You are not hidden from any enemy whose passive Perception you fail to beat. Those enemies know what square you are in and can attack you; taking a -2 penalty for Cover, or a -2 penalty for Concealment if they are using a ranged or melee attack, or both (-4).
4. You are hidden from every enemy whose passive Perception you beat: they don't know what square you are in. If they are Alert, they can make active Perception checks in their turns using minor actions to find you. They need to roll equal or better than your Stealth to beat it; if they do they will discover what square you are in and can attack you as 3. above. Even if they haven't yet found you, they can pick a square based on whatever information they have and try to attack you; taking a -2 penalty for Cover, or a -5 penalty if they are using a ranged or melee attack, but not both. If they are not Alert, they can't try to find you until you take an action affecting your Stealth or something makes them Alert.
5. Stealth does not upgrade Cover to Superior Cover, or Concealment to Total Concealment. Don't stack those modifiers onto your other advantages. Stealth doesn't make you Invisible.
6. You have Combat Advantage against every enemy whose Perception has not beaten your Stealth check. You can have Combat Advantage this way against some enemies and not others. To attack with Combat Advantage you must be hidden first by using some other action. When you attack from hiding, your hidden condition does not end until after completing the entirety of your attack action. An attack action in this context includes only those things that happen within the action you used to make the attack, and not any effects that run beyond that action.
7. Once any enemy notices you, that enemy can share information. If they do, anyone capable of understanding that information is Alert and knows what direction you are in. They don't automatically gain a successful Perception check: you are still hidden against enemies who have not yet beaten your check. Knowing the right direction to look in can provide a favourable circumstances modifier of +2 on active Perception checks, or an unfavourable circumstances modifier of -2 on further Stealth checks.
8. If you lose Cover or Concealment against an enemy while you are hidden from them, they spot you (no check). You can lose Cover or Concealment against some enemies and not others, but you are no longer hidden against any enemy after you attack or shout (no check).
9. Suggested House Rule Remaining adjacent to an enemy you just attacked or who just successfully hit you with a melee attack automatically disqualifies a given situation from being appropriate. If you are not hidden now, you can't hide again without changing the situation. Gaining Superior Cover or Total Concealment should typically do that, even if you don't subsequently hide in that Superior Cover or with that Total Concealment, as should creating a diversion.
10. Suggested House Rule When an enemy shares information about a hider, if that enemy or a given recipient of their information is standing right next to the hider (i.e. adjacent), they can tell the exact square. Attackers who know only the direction pick 3 or 4 squares, using a d6 or a d10 respectively. One of the picked squares always includes the hider. They choose one square to be least likely (1), one fairly likely (2-3), one very likely (4-6), and one most likely (7-10), then roll.
-------------------------------------------
[sblock=1. Cover or Concealment]CSR 'On page 178 of the Players Handbook, the last paragraph on the left side of the page states "The DM tells you if a skill check is appropriate in a given situation or directs you to make a check if circumstances call for one." On Page 188 under the description of stealth, under the Cover or Concealment section it states "...You must have cover against or concealment from the creature to make a stealth check". These rules do not state that the player must be granted a stealth check. It is to the DM's discretion if they would like to allow a stealth check or not.'
Argument Given If A, possible B; then If A, always B = unproven. Having Cover and Concealment makes Stealth possible, but not inevitable.
CSR 'Question:
1) Since your allies provide you cover against enemy ranged attacks, can you make a opposed Stealth Check versus the Perception of enemies at range to become hidden from their view? (Per the FAQ and your previous CSR reply you'd then have combat advantage against those ranged enemies and they'd be -5 to attack you until they can spot you with a perception check.)
2) On a related question, let's say you're fighting an enemy that has a reach weapon like a polearm. Per p.280 Cover under Reach it says that you still have cover against that enemy if the intervening square between you and them provides cover. But then under Creatures and Cover it says that allies don't provide cover against melee attacks. So my question is, if there is an ally between you and an enemy with a reach weapon, does your ally provide cover against that enemy? And if so, can you use that cover to make a Stealth check to become temporarilly hidden from view relative to that enemy as per question 1) above?
Answer:
Thank you for writing.
1. Yes you can.
2. No, your ally does not provide cover against a melee reach attack.'
PHB183, PHB188, PHB280, PHB281, DMG43.[/sblock]
[sblock=2. Passive Perception]CSR. 'The DM can choose to use either active or passive perception checks to notice Stealth. Even if an active check fails, if passive would succeed the check succeeds. An active roll is just a chance to roll better.'
WotC_Mearls 'Make your Stealth checks against passive Perception, unless a critter uses a minor action to make another Stealth check.' Note: I make the assumption that the second 'Stealth' is a typo. The context suggests 'Perception' is intended.
Argument Regardless of readiness, enemies always get passive Perception against Stealth. Once they are alert, they can use minor actions to make active checks. WotC_Mearls generalised that. You can use standard actions to make active Perception checks: standard actions can be traded down for minor ones and there is no difference in function with regard to Stealth, so I left it at 'minor'.
PHB26, PHB186, PHB188, PHB281, DMG61, DMG67[/sblock]
[sblock=3. Not Hidden]CSR 'A PC in concealment) makes a Stealth check of 20 beating an enemy's passive Perception of 19. Now that they've beaten that enemy's passive Perception, does that enemy have to roll a 30 on an active check to know what square they are in, now that they come under the rules on PHB281?
If the PC had rolled a 19 instead, not beating that enemy's passive Perception, would that enemy have somehow really needed a 29 to know what square they are in? Or is a 19 good enough in this case? Does it change only on a failed initial roll?
and received
1. Correct. You we need to roll a 30 to know what square they were in.
2. If the player rolled a 19, and did not beat the enemy's passive perception, that enemy would know where the player is.<...>'
CSR 'Assume that a creature has cover or concealment, but not Total Concealment or Superior Cover. Assume that another creature makes a minor perception check against the hidden creature.
People have taken two interpretations of applying the "targeting what you can't see" sidebar on page 281.
Some apply only what is written directly in that sidebar, meaning the creature must beat the Stealth score by ten points to pinpoint the hidden creature's location, and even then get a -5 penalty to attack.
Others believe that the requirement to beat the Stealth check by ten points and the -5 penalty to attack even after a successful Stealth check is only in situations where the creature is both hidden and Totally Concealed (since both of these rules would be inferred from the rules for Stealth and Total Concealment, and the sidebar seems to assume that the hidden creature has Total Concealment). In that case that the creature is not Totally Concealed, only the Stealth check itself must be beaten, and, if beaten, the hidden creature is revealed and there is no penalty to attack it beyond whatever cover or concealment it has.
Can you shed some light on this? Specifically, if the hidden creature doesn't have Total Concealment, does one's active perception check have to beat a hidden creature's Stealth check by 10 points to pinpoint its location? And, if the Stealth check is beaten, is the creature still hidden and does the -5 penalty still apply?
On a related note, does the -5 penalty stack with cover and concealment penalties the creature would have even if it were not hidden?
Answer:
Thank you for contacting us. The Targeting What you Can't See side bar on page 281 only applies to creatures you physically can't see, either because the creature is invisible, your blinded, or your fighting in darkness you can't see through. If the creature is not invisible, and your vision is not impeded by blindness or impenetrable darkness, and it just has normal cover or normal concealment. You only have to beat the creatures stealth check itself. You would not have to beat the stealth check by 10. If you beat the stealth check, then you can see the creature and attack it. You would just be subject to the normal penalties to attack vs. Cover (-2) or Concealment (-2).
As per the description of penalties on page 275, Penalties add together unless they are from the same power. So if a creature had Cover (-2) and Concealment (-2) the total penalty to attack would be (-4).'
FAQ 'There are several benefits of being hidden from an enemy - you have combat advantage against them and they will have a more difficult time targeting you. Page 281 of the Player's Handbook explains the rules for targeting creatures you cannot see.'
Argument If your enemy couldn't see you irrespective of Stealth, you should be using the Targeting What You Can't See Rules. In the opening sentence those rules limit themselves to situations where blindness, invisibility, or total obscurement (darkness) applies. The FAQ is a guideline for what to do when something is hidden, but the explicit rules such as needing to beat a check by 10 are all tied to cases where something else is impeding primary senses.
Argument The CSRs are contradictory, but that may be an artifact of the framing of the questions. If the +10 rule did apply, since you know hiders_number beat your Perception+10 (passive) and you must now beat hiders_number+10 (active), you will only succeed in guessing exact location on a 20, or may have no chance to succeed. If you decide the TWYCS rules apply in full, Stealth is an At-Will power better than many Encounter powers, netting superb defensive benefits against ranged and melee attacks (-5 to hit any defence, missing automatically if the wrong square is targeted, with the right square found only on a natural 20, or unfindable), and your DM will need a fast method for picking random squares! All classes would always desire Stealth, either throwing it in untrained (many MM creatures have low Perception) or taking Ranger-Multiclass (Warrior of the Wild) to pick it up.
Argument The rules would then introduce cases where two or more numbers simultaneously apply to beat one Stealth check. Imagine two observers, one with 19pP and one with 20pP. Hider rolls 19. So now the 19pP owner needs 29 to spot hider, while the other observer spots hider with 20. We can rule out arguments from common sense at that point.
PHB188, PHB281.[/sblock]
[sblock=4. Hidden]CSR '...If you beat the stealth check, then you can see the creature and attack it. You would just be subject to the normal penalties to attack vs. Cover (-2) or Concealment (-2).
As per the description of penalties on page 275, Penalties add together unless they are from the same power. So if a creature had Cover (-2) and Concealment (-2) the total penalty to attack would be (-4).'
Argument The ruling proferred by the 'low down' takes us deep into RAI. We have to squint at the TWYCS rules a bit, but it works, just. If you beat Stealth the rules don't apply, including the -10, if you don't beat Stealth they do, but not those parts that only apply to targets you can't see for some other reason as well. With me so far? That guides us toward 'you don't know the square'.
Argument We then have to decide the penalty to hit a Rogue successfully hidden behind a corner in dim-light. The options are -2, -4, -5, -7 or -9. In the TWYCS block -5 is tied to Total Concealment. Per 5. we know Stealth does not upgrade Concealment to Total Concealment, and despite being asked directly, a more recent CSR does not confirm -5. However, the RAW for Total Concealment begins 'You can't see the target' which matches the 'hidden from view' condition described under Success for Stealth. Drawing on the TWYCS RAW we decide the hider must be concealed in their square: Stealth is taking supernal advantage of the protection of that square. It therefore feels right to go-ahead and use the -5. If Cover or Concealment were removed that -5 would typically disappear, so that -5 penalty is coming from whichever already applies, and therefore can't stack with itself! Cover protects against all forms of attack, so that's your baseline: if you have Cover from an attack it gets -2.
PHB275, PHB281[/sblock]
[sblock=5. Does Not Upgrade]CSR'...if a warlock makes a successful stealth check, does he or does he not gain total concealment, effectively making him invisible because of a stealth check? Am I correct to assume that there is no way to "upgrade" to total concealment just from a shadow walk+ stealth?
The Warlock does not have Total Concealment, the Warlock is however unnoticed for the time being and still has Concealment.'
See also the CSR's under Not Hidden above.
Argument Shadow Walk grants Concealment if you move more than 3-squares, therefore it can let you use Stealth. Nothing about that is different from using Stealth with other kinds of Cover or Concealment; save that your DM might deem your attempt to hide behind the only piece of Concealment in a brightly lit room to be an inappropriate situation, and therefore not grant you a check. See also Monty Python's The Secret of Not Being Seen, with particular attention to the first part.
PHB131[/sblock]
[sblock=6. Combat Advantage]WotC_Mearls 'You can't attack stealthily; you have to already be hidden when you attack.' and 'The game's math assumes that the rogue gets sneak attack with just about every attack he makes' and 'when you are DMing it's OK to be liberal with letting people use the skill.'
Argument Attacking ends Stealth. Mechanically, an attack, start to finish, resolves instantly: meaning the entire attack will resolve simultaneously with Stealth breaking.
PHB188[/sblock]
[sblock=7. Enemy Notices You]WotC_Mearls 'Remember that intelligent foes will share information. If one of the four hobgoblins spots a hidden PC, that guy can tell his allies where the PC is hiding.'
Argument WotC_Mearls might have intended that 'tell his allies' means 'gives them a bonus', or 'makes them alert', or 'shows them what square to pick', or 'shows them what direction to look in'. The first reading needs words added. We've no solid reason to add words. The second reading seems inevitable: anyone understanding the information is Alert to the hider's presence. The third and fourth readings are equally good, but while anyone will agree it's easy to point in the general direction of something, some will feel uncomfortable about that being any more exact. DMs should probably make an exception where either the spotter or the given ally is standing adjacent to the hider. 'Here, right next to me![/sblock]
[sblock=8. Losing Cover or Concealment]Argument Unambiguous RAW.
PHB188.[/sblock]
[sblock=9. and 10 House Rules]Argument None, they're house rules.
[/sblock]
-vk
1. If you have Cover or Concealment from any source you can use Stealth provided your DM deems the given situation appropriate. Your DM will tell you if you can make a check. A power such as Fleeting Ghost or a skill such as Bluff that explicitly grants you a Stealth check should qualify as appropriate. Using Stealth from a diversion can let you get hidden without Cover or Concealment, but see 8. below. You will need some way to stay hidden after the end of your turn. You can use your allies for Cover against ranged enemies, but in all cases your DM decides if you have Cover using common sense.
2. Roll your initial check to get hidden against your enemies' passive Perceptions. They don't need to do anything or roll any dice: you need to roll equal or better to beat them. You can hide using any appropriate move or minor action, but whatever action you use, that whole action has to qualify for Stealth. At the end of each of your subsequent turns, and whenever you take an immediate or opportunity action, make a new check against your enemies' passive Perceptions. If there are lightly obscured squares between an enemy and the hider, apply a -5 penalty to that enemy's Perception. Note that dim-light doesn't obscure or count for Concealment against those forms of sight.
3. You are not hidden from any enemy whose passive Perception you fail to beat. Those enemies know what square you are in and can attack you; taking a -2 penalty for Cover, or a -2 penalty for Concealment if they are using a ranged or melee attack, or both (-4).
4. You are hidden from every enemy whose passive Perception you beat: they don't know what square you are in. If they are Alert, they can make active Perception checks in their turns using minor actions to find you. They need to roll equal or better than your Stealth to beat it; if they do they will discover what square you are in and can attack you as 3. above. Even if they haven't yet found you, they can pick a square based on whatever information they have and try to attack you; taking a -2 penalty for Cover, or a -5 penalty if they are using a ranged or melee attack, but not both. If they are not Alert, they can't try to find you until you take an action affecting your Stealth or something makes them Alert.
5. Stealth does not upgrade Cover to Superior Cover, or Concealment to Total Concealment. Don't stack those modifiers onto your other advantages. Stealth doesn't make you Invisible.
6. You have Combat Advantage against every enemy whose Perception has not beaten your Stealth check. You can have Combat Advantage this way against some enemies and not others. To attack with Combat Advantage you must be hidden first by using some other action. When you attack from hiding, your hidden condition does not end until after completing the entirety of your attack action. An attack action in this context includes only those things that happen within the action you used to make the attack, and not any effects that run beyond that action.
7. Once any enemy notices you, that enemy can share information. If they do, anyone capable of understanding that information is Alert and knows what direction you are in. They don't automatically gain a successful Perception check: you are still hidden against enemies who have not yet beaten your check. Knowing the right direction to look in can provide a favourable circumstances modifier of +2 on active Perception checks, or an unfavourable circumstances modifier of -2 on further Stealth checks.
8. If you lose Cover or Concealment against an enemy while you are hidden from them, they spot you (no check). You can lose Cover or Concealment against some enemies and not others, but you are no longer hidden against any enemy after you attack or shout (no check).
9. Suggested House Rule Remaining adjacent to an enemy you just attacked or who just successfully hit you with a melee attack automatically disqualifies a given situation from being appropriate. If you are not hidden now, you can't hide again without changing the situation. Gaining Superior Cover or Total Concealment should typically do that, even if you don't subsequently hide in that Superior Cover or with that Total Concealment, as should creating a diversion.
10. Suggested House Rule When an enemy shares information about a hider, if that enemy or a given recipient of their information is standing right next to the hider (i.e. adjacent), they can tell the exact square. Attackers who know only the direction pick 3 or 4 squares, using a d6 or a d10 respectively. One of the picked squares always includes the hider. They choose one square to be least likely (1), one fairly likely (2-3), one very likely (4-6), and one most likely (7-10), then roll.
-------------------------------------------
[sblock=1. Cover or Concealment]CSR 'On page 178 of the Players Handbook, the last paragraph on the left side of the page states "The DM tells you if a skill check is appropriate in a given situation or directs you to make a check if circumstances call for one." On Page 188 under the description of stealth, under the Cover or Concealment section it states "...You must have cover against or concealment from the creature to make a stealth check". These rules do not state that the player must be granted a stealth check. It is to the DM's discretion if they would like to allow a stealth check or not.'
Argument Given If A, possible B; then If A, always B = unproven. Having Cover and Concealment makes Stealth possible, but not inevitable.
CSR 'Question:
1) Since your allies provide you cover against enemy ranged attacks, can you make a opposed Stealth Check versus the Perception of enemies at range to become hidden from their view? (Per the FAQ and your previous CSR reply you'd then have combat advantage against those ranged enemies and they'd be -5 to attack you until they can spot you with a perception check.)
2) On a related question, let's say you're fighting an enemy that has a reach weapon like a polearm. Per p.280 Cover under Reach it says that you still have cover against that enemy if the intervening square between you and them provides cover. But then under Creatures and Cover it says that allies don't provide cover against melee attacks. So my question is, if there is an ally between you and an enemy with a reach weapon, does your ally provide cover against that enemy? And if so, can you use that cover to make a Stealth check to become temporarilly hidden from view relative to that enemy as per question 1) above?
Answer:
Thank you for writing.
1. Yes you can.
2. No, your ally does not provide cover against a melee reach attack.'
PHB183, PHB188, PHB280, PHB281, DMG43.[/sblock]
[sblock=2. Passive Perception]CSR. 'The DM can choose to use either active or passive perception checks to notice Stealth. Even if an active check fails, if passive would succeed the check succeeds. An active roll is just a chance to roll better.'
WotC_Mearls 'Make your Stealth checks against passive Perception, unless a critter uses a minor action to make another Stealth check.' Note: I make the assumption that the second 'Stealth' is a typo. The context suggests 'Perception' is intended.
Argument Regardless of readiness, enemies always get passive Perception against Stealth. Once they are alert, they can use minor actions to make active checks. WotC_Mearls generalised that. You can use standard actions to make active Perception checks: standard actions can be traded down for minor ones and there is no difference in function with regard to Stealth, so I left it at 'minor'.
PHB26, PHB186, PHB188, PHB281, DMG61, DMG67[/sblock]
[sblock=3. Not Hidden]CSR 'A PC in concealment) makes a Stealth check of 20 beating an enemy's passive Perception of 19. Now that they've beaten that enemy's passive Perception, does that enemy have to roll a 30 on an active check to know what square they are in, now that they come under the rules on PHB281?
If the PC had rolled a 19 instead, not beating that enemy's passive Perception, would that enemy have somehow really needed a 29 to know what square they are in? Or is a 19 good enough in this case? Does it change only on a failed initial roll?
and received
1. Correct. You we need to roll a 30 to know what square they were in.
2. If the player rolled a 19, and did not beat the enemy's passive perception, that enemy would know where the player is.<...>'
CSR 'Assume that a creature has cover or concealment, but not Total Concealment or Superior Cover. Assume that another creature makes a minor perception check against the hidden creature.
People have taken two interpretations of applying the "targeting what you can't see" sidebar on page 281.
Some apply only what is written directly in that sidebar, meaning the creature must beat the Stealth score by ten points to pinpoint the hidden creature's location, and even then get a -5 penalty to attack.
Others believe that the requirement to beat the Stealth check by ten points and the -5 penalty to attack even after a successful Stealth check is only in situations where the creature is both hidden and Totally Concealed (since both of these rules would be inferred from the rules for Stealth and Total Concealment, and the sidebar seems to assume that the hidden creature has Total Concealment). In that case that the creature is not Totally Concealed, only the Stealth check itself must be beaten, and, if beaten, the hidden creature is revealed and there is no penalty to attack it beyond whatever cover or concealment it has.
Can you shed some light on this? Specifically, if the hidden creature doesn't have Total Concealment, does one's active perception check have to beat a hidden creature's Stealth check by 10 points to pinpoint its location? And, if the Stealth check is beaten, is the creature still hidden and does the -5 penalty still apply?
On a related note, does the -5 penalty stack with cover and concealment penalties the creature would have even if it were not hidden?
Answer:
Thank you for contacting us. The Targeting What you Can't See side bar on page 281 only applies to creatures you physically can't see, either because the creature is invisible, your blinded, or your fighting in darkness you can't see through. If the creature is not invisible, and your vision is not impeded by blindness or impenetrable darkness, and it just has normal cover or normal concealment. You only have to beat the creatures stealth check itself. You would not have to beat the stealth check by 10. If you beat the stealth check, then you can see the creature and attack it. You would just be subject to the normal penalties to attack vs. Cover (-2) or Concealment (-2).
As per the description of penalties on page 275, Penalties add together unless they are from the same power. So if a creature had Cover (-2) and Concealment (-2) the total penalty to attack would be (-4).'
FAQ 'There are several benefits of being hidden from an enemy - you have combat advantage against them and they will have a more difficult time targeting you. Page 281 of the Player's Handbook explains the rules for targeting creatures you cannot see.'
Argument If your enemy couldn't see you irrespective of Stealth, you should be using the Targeting What You Can't See Rules. In the opening sentence those rules limit themselves to situations where blindness, invisibility, or total obscurement (darkness) applies. The FAQ is a guideline for what to do when something is hidden, but the explicit rules such as needing to beat a check by 10 are all tied to cases where something else is impeding primary senses.
Argument The CSRs are contradictory, but that may be an artifact of the framing of the questions. If the +10 rule did apply, since you know hiders_number beat your Perception+10 (passive) and you must now beat hiders_number+10 (active), you will only succeed in guessing exact location on a 20, or may have no chance to succeed. If you decide the TWYCS rules apply in full, Stealth is an At-Will power better than many Encounter powers, netting superb defensive benefits against ranged and melee attacks (-5 to hit any defence, missing automatically if the wrong square is targeted, with the right square found only on a natural 20, or unfindable), and your DM will need a fast method for picking random squares! All classes would always desire Stealth, either throwing it in untrained (many MM creatures have low Perception) or taking Ranger-Multiclass (Warrior of the Wild) to pick it up.
Argument The rules would then introduce cases where two or more numbers simultaneously apply to beat one Stealth check. Imagine two observers, one with 19pP and one with 20pP. Hider rolls 19. So now the 19pP owner needs 29 to spot hider, while the other observer spots hider with 20. We can rule out arguments from common sense at that point.
PHB188, PHB281.[/sblock]
[sblock=4. Hidden]CSR '...If you beat the stealth check, then you can see the creature and attack it. You would just be subject to the normal penalties to attack vs. Cover (-2) or Concealment (-2).
As per the description of penalties on page 275, Penalties add together unless they are from the same power. So if a creature had Cover (-2) and Concealment (-2) the total penalty to attack would be (-4).'
Argument The ruling proferred by the 'low down' takes us deep into RAI. We have to squint at the TWYCS rules a bit, but it works, just. If you beat Stealth the rules don't apply, including the -10, if you don't beat Stealth they do, but not those parts that only apply to targets you can't see for some other reason as well. With me so far? That guides us toward 'you don't know the square'.
Argument We then have to decide the penalty to hit a Rogue successfully hidden behind a corner in dim-light. The options are -2, -4, -5, -7 or -9. In the TWYCS block -5 is tied to Total Concealment. Per 5. we know Stealth does not upgrade Concealment to Total Concealment, and despite being asked directly, a more recent CSR does not confirm -5. However, the RAW for Total Concealment begins 'You can't see the target' which matches the 'hidden from view' condition described under Success for Stealth. Drawing on the TWYCS RAW we decide the hider must be concealed in their square: Stealth is taking supernal advantage of the protection of that square. It therefore feels right to go-ahead and use the -5. If Cover or Concealment were removed that -5 would typically disappear, so that -5 penalty is coming from whichever already applies, and therefore can't stack with itself! Cover protects against all forms of attack, so that's your baseline: if you have Cover from an attack it gets -2.
PHB275, PHB281[/sblock]
[sblock=5. Does Not Upgrade]CSR'...if a warlock makes a successful stealth check, does he or does he not gain total concealment, effectively making him invisible because of a stealth check? Am I correct to assume that there is no way to "upgrade" to total concealment just from a shadow walk+ stealth?
The Warlock does not have Total Concealment, the Warlock is however unnoticed for the time being and still has Concealment.'
See also the CSR's under Not Hidden above.
Argument Shadow Walk grants Concealment if you move more than 3-squares, therefore it can let you use Stealth. Nothing about that is different from using Stealth with other kinds of Cover or Concealment; save that your DM might deem your attempt to hide behind the only piece of Concealment in a brightly lit room to be an inappropriate situation, and therefore not grant you a check. See also Monty Python's The Secret of Not Being Seen, with particular attention to the first part.
PHB131[/sblock]
[sblock=6. Combat Advantage]WotC_Mearls 'You can't attack stealthily; you have to already be hidden when you attack.' and 'The game's math assumes that the rogue gets sneak attack with just about every attack he makes' and 'when you are DMing it's OK to be liberal with letting people use the skill.'
Argument Attacking ends Stealth. Mechanically, an attack, start to finish, resolves instantly: meaning the entire attack will resolve simultaneously with Stealth breaking.
PHB188[/sblock]
[sblock=7. Enemy Notices You]WotC_Mearls 'Remember that intelligent foes will share information. If one of the four hobgoblins spots a hidden PC, that guy can tell his allies where the PC is hiding.'
Argument WotC_Mearls might have intended that 'tell his allies' means 'gives them a bonus', or 'makes them alert', or 'shows them what square to pick', or 'shows them what direction to look in'. The first reading needs words added. We've no solid reason to add words. The second reading seems inevitable: anyone understanding the information is Alert to the hider's presence. The third and fourth readings are equally good, but while anyone will agree it's easy to point in the general direction of something, some will feel uncomfortable about that being any more exact. DMs should probably make an exception where either the spotter or the given ally is standing adjacent to the hider. 'Here, right next to me![/sblock]
[sblock=8. Losing Cover or Concealment]Argument Unambiguous RAW.
PHB188.[/sblock]
[sblock=9. and 10 House Rules]Argument None, they're house rules.
[/sblock]-vk
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I'm not meaning to alter the penalty on Stealth for moving.
