D&D 5E Stealth to hide and then attack from hidden

[Cendorn]

What is the archetypical way to use a hide-then-strike-with-advantage-and-sneak-attack-bonus-strategy?

I am an assassin, and I use my turn to walk into the shadows (dim light) and hide. There are four enemies in the room, one of which has low-light vision. I roll for Dex(Stealth). DM rolls for the three enemies that is concerned with the dim light. (I presume that from the low-light vision enemy I cannot hide?). It turns out I beat the perception check of two of the enemies but not the third. So I am now hidden from two enemies.

On my next turn, none of the two enemies have spotted me. I now have to move out of the shadows to get to one of these two. I dexterity(stealth) again and the target fails to wisdom(perception) me. I stab the unknowing target in the back – using advantage and sneak attack damage.

Is this even close to how you use this tactics?

- Can I be hidden from some enemies and not some?
- Could the enemies that sees me alert the others of the danger?
- Can I sneak out over the well-lit floor to sneak attack someone out there?
- If so, is it a Stealth vs. Perception situation? Anyone with advantage/disadvantage?

As you can see, after thirty years of DD-playing (not so intence…) I still never played a backstabber. In 4E we used rogue-strikers, but with flank etc. hide-in-shadows was seldom needed, and we never learned how to really use it.

So, anyone being able to enlighten me? Booth house rules, RAW and experience from previous editions are welcome!

Thank you for your patience,
Cendorn

 

[GX.Sigma]

I am an assassin, and I use my turn to walk into the shadows (dim light) and hide. There are four enemies in the room, one of which has low-light vision. I roll for Dex(Stealth). DM rolls for the three enemies that is concerned with the dim light. (I presume that from the low-light vision enemy I cannot hide?). It turns out I beat the perception check of two of the enemies but not the third. So I am now hidden from two enemies.

This is all correct so far, assuming you have some special ability that lets you hide in low light (which the assassin does not automatically have). In the final game, creatures will have passive perception checks, so that will cut down on the rolling.

On my next turn, none of the two enemies have spotted me. I now have to move out of the shadows to get to one of these two. I dexterity(stealth) again and the target fails to wisdom(perception) me. I stab the unknowing target in the back – using advantage and sneak attack damage.

As soon as you move out of concealment, you're no longer hidden. Also, you don't need to make another stealth check (nor do they make another perception check, unless they're using their action to do so). A ranged attack would be advisable here.

- Can I be hidden from some enemies and not some?
- Could the enemies that sees me alert the others of the danger?
- Can I sneak out over the well-lit floor to sneak attack someone out there?
- If so, is it a Stealth vs. Perception situation? Anyone with advantage/disadvantage?

-Yes.
-Yup.
-Nope.
-Stealth vs. (Passive) Perception, though you only need to roll once. A DM might give you advantage if you have boots of elvenkind or are in a zone of magical silence.

 

[ambroseji]

- Can I sneak out over the well-lit floor to sneak attack someone out there?

Not in combat, but out of combat I would allow my players to make a Dexterity (Stealth) check to silently creep up on someone who is occupied or looking elsewhere.

An elven rogue in one of my games made great use of Stealth and attacking with a bow from the shadows and/or trees.

 

[Li Shenron]

I am taking a shot at this, but I haven't actually had any Rogue players in 5e games, so I still have to learn how it works in D&DNext!

What is the archetypical way to use a hide-then-strike-with-advantage-and-sneak-attack-bonus-strategy?

I don't think there is an archetype because sneak attack doesn't work the same in all editions. I'd start from the RAW and check what happens in 5e:

- Sneak Attack works when you have advantage on attack rolls, it doesn't matter why you have advantage (it also works when the target is busy in melee with another enemy, but let's focus on the first case only)

- if you are hidden, you have advantage on attack rolls, therefore Sneak Attack works

- however, getting out of the hidden position to make a melee attack OR attacking (ranged) from the hidden position, automatically "reveals your position"

- nothing says if you can just make another Stealth check immediately and go back to hidden, and/or if you are required to actually change position

I think I'd adjudicate case-by-case the latter point.

I am an assassin, and I use my turn to walk into the shadows (dim light) and hide. There are four enemies in the room, one of which has low-light vision. I roll for Dex(Stealth). DM rolls for the three enemies that is concerned with the dim light. (I presume that from the low-light vision enemy I cannot hide?). It turns out I beat the perception check of two of the enemies but not the third. So I am now hidden from two enemies.

I assume here you mean you have the Stealthy feat i.e. you can "hide when lightly obscured". Dim light makes you lightly obscured. Low-light vision allows to see in dim light as well as if it was bright light.

The ambiguity is, which one is stronger, Stealthy or Low-light vision?

Does Stealthy turns dim light into darkness? No, you can hide in it as if it was darkness but it's still dim light, so someone with low-light vision can still see clearly in it, so you cannot hide!

OTOH

Does Low-light vision turns dim light into bright light? No, you can see in it as if it was bright light but it's still dim light, so someone with Stealthy can still hide in it, so you cannot see it!

I'd be more inclined to rule in favor of low-light vision, but I wish the RAW was more clear.

a- Can I be hidden from some enemies and not some?
b- Could the enemies that sees me alert the others of the danger?
c- Can I sneak out over the well-lit floor to sneak attack someone out there?
d- If so, is it a Stealth vs. Perception situation? Anyone with advantage/disadvantage?

a- yes, it's a skill contest vs each, so why not?
b- no, or actually yes of course, but not as to negate the penalty: they can tell you someone's hidden over there, but if you didn't see it with your perception check, you still don't see it
c- see above, I'd say yes if you are fast enough (i.e. if you start your turn hidden and attack in this turn)
d- yes, technically the skill contest is when you start hiding rather than when you attack, no special adv/disadv in this case

 

[Wangalade]

b- no, or actually yes of course, but not as to negate the penalty: they can tell you someone's hidden over there, but if you didn't see it with your perception check, you still don't see it
c- see above, I'd say yes if you are fast enough (i.e. if you start your turn hidden and attack in this turn)

b- if one member of the group sees you and points you out, then they don't need to make a perception check to see you, they see you because they know where to look.
c- no, if you have to leave the shadows you are no longer hiding

ranged attacks should not apply to sneak attacks. just because they can't see you doesn't mean you can make a better attack. a sneak attack works because someone is not aware of you, so you can choose a specific vital organ to damage while you are standing right next to them.

 

[Mistwell]

b- if one member of the group sees you and points you out, then they don't need to make a perception check to see you, they see you because they know where to look.
c- no, if you have to leave the shadows you are no longer hiding

ranged attacks should not apply to sneak attacks. just because they can't see you doesn't mean you can make a better attack. a sneak attack works because someone is not aware of you, so you can choose a specific vital organ to damage while you are standing right next to them.

I think you just said you should never be able to make a sneak attack from hiding. Which would be obviously false.

You don't get to point out a hidden person when it's not your turn. And you can sneak attack from range.

 

[Li Shenron]

b- if one member of the group sees you and points you out, then they don't need to make a perception check to see you, they see you because they know where to look.
c- no, if you have to leave the shadows you are no longer hiding

ranged attacks should not apply to sneak attacks. just because they can't see you doesn't mean you can make a better attack. a sneak attack works because someone is not aware of you, so you can choose a specific vital organ to damage while you are standing right next to them.

In case b: you can be hidden in a bush or under foliage etc., but just because someone is told you are hidden in that bush, doesn't mean he can already see you. If it's a very clear location (small bush, behind a specific object), he might shoot there and hit you anyway (in 3e he'd have penalties however, even if targetting the correct location, if you are technically not visible). Furthermore, if you let one creature who wins its perception check immediately negate everybody's else failure at that perception checks, this is not going to work well at all for anybody who wants to use hiding as a tactic.

The problem with c is that, if you rule that once out of the shadows you are immediately no longer hiding and ranged attack don't work as well, then you can just scrap the idea of attacking from hidden from the game. (which you can do, if you like) However, in general I agree that ranged sneak attacks don't feel completely right, at least not without a range limit.

If you still want the game to have an option to attack from a hidden position, you have to rule that attacking reveals your position after your attack. You can explain that in terms of the fact that in the middle of a combat everything happens more or less simultaneously, and starting from hidden is enough to make the target unable to react quickly and defend at his best. With the same idea in mind, in the midst of a combat the idea that someone spots you and can inform everybody else exactly where you are, and immediately they all see you, becomes not so realistic.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

However, in general I agree that ranged sneak attacks don't feel completely right, at least not without a range limit.

There is always the range limit from the weapon, at least. If you make an attack at long range, it causes Disadvantage, which negates the Advantage that would allow you to sneak attack.

Of course, you would still be able to shoot anyone who is in melee with an ally, but that's a really weird rule anyway; having an ally adjacent to your target should not make it easier to hit the target's vital spots. I would feel much more comfortable if the conditions for sneak attack stipulated that allies engaging your target only let you sneak attack with a melee weapon. That's actually a pretty cool dynamic, since the rogue's Cunning Action can be used to either hide or​ disengage.

 

[Warskull]

Really, it is a lot simpler than sneaking.

1) Choose assassin archetype, at level 3 you get an ability that gives you advantage in the first round against any creature who has not yet taken an action. Basically, you get advantage against anyone you beat in initiative.

2) You may sneak attack anything you have advantage against

3) This ability also gives you a free crit and you take 6 on ally your sneak attack dice if you attack a "surprised" enemy.

4) Acquire the "Alert" feat to gain +5 to initiative and immunity to surprise (while conscious.) This means a vast majority of the time you will trigger your "assassinate" feature.

So let's take a level 10 rogue with 18 dex and alertness using a rapier. He has +9 to initiative. He will probably act first. The rapier deals 1d8 and can be finessed. So if he hits he deals 2d8+4+18 if he hits in the first round. You could spec into dual wielding to hedge your bets too. You could reasonably have 18 dex, alert, and dual wielder at level 10. This would give you 2d8+4(rapier)+2d6(short sword)+18(sneak attack), with two chances to hit with advantage the sneak attack damage is almost guaranteed.

The icing on the cake, at level 16 the assassin path gets the death strike ability. The target must make a Con save of DC10+[Dex Mod] or take double damage.

Surprise is a lot easier to achieve than sneaking up on someone. It could be you sneak up through the shadows and jump a guy. It could be you pose as a barmaid, walk right up to him in plain sight, then drop your serving tray, draw your weapons, and stab him. Surprise is a little vague in D&D next and DM determined. The general rule is the target was caught off guard and actually surprised.

 

[Li Shenron]

Really, it is a lot simpler than sneaking.

1) Choose assassin archetype....

It's a different thing. In this thread, we're not discussing the unique abilities of a Rogue(Assassin), but rather the general idea (usable by anyone) of hiding before attacking.

Of course hiding before attacking is much better if you have Sneak Attack (any Rogue), but anyone can do that and get advantage at least.

A secondary topic of the OP was what happens if you need only dim-light to hide, for example if you have the Stealth feat.

The Assassin's unique ability is a different thing, indeed it's better, that's why you need to be a more specific (and specialized) character to have it