Stop putting out ?@$%#^&@ CRAP!!!!!!

[Vraille Darkfang]

But why are you looking at a book like Primeval Groves if the numbers are the most important part to you? Primeval Groves is so cool because of all the *other* words on the page, not the stat blocks. Buy a monster book that's got lots of crunch, and minimal fluff (the WotC ones), if that's what you want.

First, I've noticed a lot of minor editing & grammer errors. Repeated words, mispellings, wrong font or font type, etc. None of these errors, while annoying detract substantialy me being able to use this book. However, its annoying and (in this case) noticable. Unless the editing is really, really horrible, I'd never write a review saying "don't buy this, they didn't use spellcheck". In this case, I'm going to mention it, but it isn't enough to ruin the product.

As for the Game Mechanic problems. That's very important to me. While flavor text, ecology, and such makes a monster cool, the Stat Block is what lives and dies (and kills) in my Wednesday game. I game at my FLGS & can't stop the game to see what the Will save for a 15 HD plant creature should be. A monster that has a bad stat block is going to stop my game cold. For instance:

The Logergeist is a Huge Undead with 15 HD & a 25 Str. It has a listed BAB of +11 & Attack bonus of +16. If I just throw this at my players, I know enough to say 'that's wrong' but not enough to say it should be this.

It should be BAB +7 & Attack Bonus of +14. It seems a mistake was made in regards to the Size modifiers to attack.

In order to use this product fully I need to find EVERY game mechanic error in it. Find what the correct Gmae Stat SHOULD be. Then I have to actually write it somewhere in the product.

So, is the Gmae Stats the most important thing to me in a d20 book? Absolutley, at least as far as monster books are concerned. I have hundreds of books with the 'other' words on the page you mention. Lovecraft, Moorcock, Howard, Heinlen, Asmov & more folklore & mythology resources than I could fit in a closet. If I want 'other words' Primeval Groves has a lot more competition. If, on the other hand I am looking for not only unique ideas (which Primeval Groves does have) but also interpretes them into d20 game stats I can use with confidence... Well that's what I was looking for. If I can't whip open a monster book & throw a CR X monster against my players with confidence, I just leave it at home.

Also, I didn't stop at monster three. Most of the others I checked also had errors, some minor (i.e I can correct them on the fly in my head, wrong # of feats is a good example) to moderate (wrong, I can't fix it in my head, but the chance of it mattering is low; Saves often fit in this category), to major (wrong, will matter & I have no idea how to fix it in my head, Attack bonuses usually fit here).

I'll admit for me my creativity exceeds my d20 knowledge. I like creativity & originality, but correct Game Mecahnics are a must.

Thanks, for pointing that out. Many gamers 'crunch vs fluff' preference differs. I guess I'll state i prefer my RPG peanut butter crunchy, with peanuts, not some unknown crunchy substance.

Later

 

[John Cooper]

I tend to agree with Vraille Darkfang. Correct game mechanics are way at the top of my list, as well. I feel that while many DMs like to "tweak" their monsters to fit their own tastes (and more power to them), they shouldn't have to do any "tweaking" just to get the monster to comply with the standard rules.

 

[John Cooper]

Of course, that said, I haven't seen Primeval Groves for myself so I can't really comment on the specifics of that book. I have seen three of Goodman Games' "Complete Guide" lines each featuring a specific monster, though, and have been really impressed with them. Also, I'll echo the commiseration and kudos given to Joseph Goodman by earlier posters: it's terrible that such a printing error had to happen, but it was a very classy thing to do to make up for it as you did. Well done!

 

[woodelf]

First, I've noticed a lot of minor editing & grammer errors. Repeated words, mispellings, wrong font or font type, etc. None of these errors, while annoying detract substantialy me being able to use this book. However, its annoying and (in this case) noticable. Unless the editing is really, really horrible, I'd never write a review saying "don't buy this, they didn't use spellcheck". In this case, I'm going to mention it, but it isn't enough to ruin the product.

As for the Game Mechanic problems. That's very important to me. While flavor text, ecology, and such makes a monster cool, the Stat Block is what lives and dies (and kills) in my Wednesday game. I game at my FLGS & can't stop the game to see what the Will save for a 15 HD plant creature should be. A monster that has a bad stat block is going to stop my game cold. For instance:

The Logergeist is a Huge Undead with 15 HD & a 25 Str. It has a listed BAB of +11 & Attack bonus of +16. If I just throw this at my players, I know enough to say 'that's wrong' but not enough to say it should be this.

It should be BAB +7 & Attack Bonus of +14. It seems a mistake was made in regards to the Size modifiers to attack.

In order to use this product fully I need to find EVERY game mechanic error in it. Find what the correct Gmae Stat SHOULD be. Then I have to actually write it somewhere in the product.

Well, that was sort of my point: no, you don't. Or, rather, no, i don't. D20 System requires more stats than i'm willing to take the time to invent myself. But i don't really care if they're "correct", so long as they're reasonable. In fact, "incorrect" stats are, if anything, a bonus to me--it lends variety.

So, is the Gmae Stats the most important thing to me in a d20 book? Absolutley, at least as far as monster books are concerned. I have hundreds of books with the 'other' words on the page you mention. Lovecraft, Moorcock, Howard, Heinlen, Asmov & more folklore & mythology resources than I could fit in a closet. If I want 'other words' Primeval Groves has a lot more competition. If, on the other hand I am looking for not only unique ideas (which Primeval Groves does have) but also interpretes them into d20 game stats I can use with confidence... Well that's what I was looking for. If I can't whip open a monster book & throw a CR X monster against my players with confidence, I just leave it at home.

Also, I didn't stop at monster three. Most of the others I checked also had errors, some minor (i.e I can correct them on the fly in my head, wrong # of feats is a good example) to moderate (wrong, I can't fix it in my head, but the chance of it mattering is low; Saves often fit in this category), to major (wrong, will matter & I have no idea how to fix it in my head, Attack bonuses usually fit here).

That's why i said that even if every monster had that level of errors, it wouldn't concern me.

I'll admit for me my creativity exceeds my d20 knowledge. I like creativity & originality, but correct Game Mecahnics are a must.

Thanks, for pointing that out. Many gamers 'crunch vs fluff' preference differs. I guess I'll state i prefer my RPG peanut butter crunchy, with peanuts, not some unknown crunchy substance.

You don't even need to state your preference for the review to be good and useful. You merely need to be clear what it is you like or dislike about a product, and others can adapt that info appropriately. So, if you say "it's lousy because all the game stats are off" i know that i needn't heed that, but if you say "it's lousy because the monsters are unoriginal" i know that i probably won't like it (allowing for different standards of "original").

Anyway, i guess it's just a difference of attitude. Guessing at the appropriate CR of a 15HD creature, i guess i wouldn't worry about +16 vs +14 for the attack bonus, against appropriate-level characters. That's not my idea of a game-breaker--after all, the critter could get that +2 just by attacking from the high ground, or some other minor advantage, so if that makes the difference, the critter was probably too powerful to begin with.

For me, too, my creativity far exceeds my D20 System knowledge--i don't even know how to check if a monster is "correct", much less analyze the CR for correctness. But i just don't see it as an issue. Most games i run, there's nothing but eyeballing to determine the level of challenge of an opponent, and it's just never been a problem. Worst case scenario, i fudge the monster's stats to keep the group alive, or have her three sisters show up to give them a proper challenge. I made it through an 8yr AD&D2 campaign eyeballing and winging it. Also, i don't necessarily believe in appropriate-level challenges in my gaming, fantasy or otherwise. I prefer to pick the appropriate critter for the circumstances, and rely on the players to determine whether they should fight, negotiate, avoid, or run away.