D&D 5E Strength-based Rogue archetype, feedback much appreciated!

[Guest 6801328]

The more I think about it the more I think this could be a Fighter archetype.
A fighter with a few roguish qualities and perhaps sneak attack (that does subdual damage), move silently in heavy armor bonuses with martial dice per rest.

"Thug" Fighter sub-class.

For both flavor and game balance it would need an incentive to wear medium armor or lighter. "When wearing medium armor gain...(something)". Or maybe instead of a boring AC boost, some special ability that helps avoid or redirect attacks, only usable when not in heavy armor.

 

[akr71]

[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION] That looks pretty solid. The only thing I'm missing is a blackjack/sap - I suppose I could re-skin a dagger and give it bludgeoning damage rather than piercing damage (which is all an 'official' ruling would likely be anyway).

 

[Mephista]

So Rogues are baller and all that but why can't they have a bit more brutal approach? Why can't they wield REAL weapons and wear REAL armor? Or perhaps go to the gym a few times a week? Why can't a Rogue impress the common folks with their bulging biceps? "Of course they can!" Yes, Jimmy, you are completely right. Of course a rogue could max their Strength and leave their Dexterity at a mediocre level, there's nothing against that in the rule book. A wizard can max charisma first and a Barbarian can go all out for that sweet sweet Wisdom. But why would they though, Jimmy? Why would they? "Because not all players are Min-Maxing a**faces like you!" Well that sure is true Jimmy, you little rascal you! "And leather IS REAL armor!" Well I don't know about that Jimmy boy, but if you're into that kinda thing that's completely fine, I don't judge.

So, lets put aside the accusations of min-maxing here. Classes are more than just sets of rules. They're designed to look at archetypes and jobs in a roleplay perspective. Wizards are scholars above all else. They're students who get their powers from studying and books. So, while they can (and often do) have some investment in social ability for various reasons, they're still meant to study. Why would a Barbarian focus on wisdom? That is actually a very good question - barbarians, naming aside, is someone who specializes in the physical. Asking about wisdom could reveal some pretty cool sides to the story of a character. That said, asking why the person is focusing on Wisdom and ignoring their physical and choosing the Barbarian lifestyle - would not a ranger or druid or even a nature-based monk fit the character better if we focus on observation? What part of this character is barbarian-like?

Now, not saying that Strength-Rogues can't be a thing. But, from a story perspective, asking "why" is a very good one to ask. What kind of story is this meant to tell? What archetype or style we looking to play? What's going on here? What kind of person is this? Why can't a rogue buff out? A better question is - why would someone focused on buffing out study to move like a nimble acrobat? And, yes, that assumption is built into the rogue's Cunning Actions and other evasive maneuvers. Even if you dont' call it acrobatics or tumbling, nimble behavior is definitely baked into the class. Archetypes should still feel like part of the base class in some way.

So my question is, can we find a middle ground? Is it possible to make a Strength-based Rogue that feels enjoyable to play while still being a viable choice compared to other rogue archetypes? Or compared to other Classes, for that matter?

Nope.

Joking aside, there was the brutal Rogue in 4e, who did the whole Strength route. That was kind of interesting, because they dealt with stunning and intimidating people through their attacks, which was rather an interesting feature that was fun to play. Granted, that was also doable because of how 4e worked, but the core idea is still solid, and might be worth mining for ideas.

Brutal Genius[/SIZE]

Force Over Finesse

Okay, now to talk about actual mechanics. I don't like the removal of the advantage. On the one hand, you can someone within 5' to get off sneak attack, but it sounds like you want to get rid of that. You're effectively eliminating the core fighting style of the Rogue here, and feeling like just another Fighter-type who smacks things hard with larger weapons - just using a single attack instead of multiple. Rogues should always be angling for advantage in some way.

Martial Training
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiency with martial weapons and medium Armor.

While medium armor is a necessity here, why martial weapons? Rogues aren't meant to be front line warriors, they're not meant to be highly trained in martial matters. Why are martial weapons a thing here?

Professional Vandal

What does this do? What purpose does it serve? Why are we breaking objects? Thief gets to climb faster, which helps with second story work, with exploration in dungeons, with evasion in combat. Arcane Trickster gets to put disadvantage on people to resist spells (this is huge!) Swashbucklers are literally charming. Assassins get disguise mastery - not exactly a huge boost for most games, but if you're playing an actual assassin slipping into places to kill someone, its a huge benefit.

What purpose does smashing objects have for the character?

Vigorous Body

Okay, sure. Despite popular views, Strength saving throws are actually pretty common when not fighting dragons.

A Masterpiece in Violence

When you reach 17th level, you have become a destructive force to be reckoned with. As well as a true genius (or at least in your own eyes). You gain the following benefits:

Attacking twice is called Extra Attack. Or using your bonus action or reaction. It should always be tied to something like that. And adding an extra +10dpr from the d6 to d8 bump is rather notable, though I admit to find just pure dpr boost to be a bit underwhelming here. Extra Attack, on its own, is big, because that's another chance to hit with your sneak attack.

Also, with your restriction removal on sneak attack, you can already use your sneak attack bonus on unarmed attacks, so that's just redundant.

 

[JPicasso]

I like it.

I do think it swings too much toward OP without the advantage/ally restriction on the brutal attack. I would also just remove the finesse part, and for flavor, only allow ranged brutal on thrown weapons that do not sport the light property, so javs and axes, but no darts or daggers.
(What? an boost for thrown weapons? crazy talk!)

I would take Smokey Criminal's rearrangement of your ideas. It does need a capstone ability.

Great work, both of you.

 

[Gwarok]

I made a guy that might fit the bill, but he's multiclassed into Barbarian, although that isn't necessary:

Heinrich, Chief Bully Boy Level 5 Barbarian Level 5 Rogue Variant Human

Str 18 +4 AC 19
Dex 16 +3 HP 125
Con 18 +4 Melee: Fist +8 to Hit(1D4+4)x2
Int 12 +1 Range:
Wis 14 +2
Cha 10 +0

Equipment:

Bracers of Armor

Proficiencies & Feats

Level 1: Tavern Brawler
Level 4 Rogue: Grappler
Level 4 Barbarian: Toughness
Athletics*, Perception, Stealth, Survival, Intimidation*, Acrobatics, Investigation
Thieve's Tools

Class Features: Bear Totem Assassin

Cunning Action
Sneak Attack +3D6
Rage: 3 uses per Long Rest, +2 Damage, Resistant to Slashing, Piercing, Bludgeoning while raging
Expertise: Athletics, Intimidation
Uncanny Dodge: 1/2 Damage as a reaction vs any attack you can see
Extra Attack
Fast Movement
Resistant to all but Psychic damage when raging
Assassinate: Advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. Also, any hit against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.

Now, obviously I gave him pretty good stats, he's an NPC in my campaign, meant to be the chief enforcer of the city's crime boss, and I've generally limited NPC's in the city to 10th level at most except for truly exceptional situations. But he's a bruiser. Bare knuckled he grapples and beats the crap outta guys and doesn't even really need armor. Of course you can make him straight rogue, give him some studded leather and he'll still be pretty damn effective, in fact his sneak attack will go up considerably, as well as get him another feat. I came up with the idea of the character based loosely on "Hendricks" from the Dresden Files, a bull necked brute who's totally loyal to his boss and mean as hell. I wanted a henchman who wasn't walking around town in full plate with a giant sword and could take care of business, and I was pleasantly surprised how well he came out. He's fast, tough, mean, and watching him grapple and throw the cocky 20STR 14th Paladin I DM out of a 2nd story bar window was fun as hell for me. Especially after the previous session where the Paladin practically solo'd a Death Knight he wasn't even meant to fight thanks to 2 crits on the opening round and Improved Divine Smite. Was nice to have a chance to serve him up just a small slice of humble pie from an unarmed, unarmored human 4 levels lower than him.

 

[Bacon of immorality]

@SmokeyCriminalI just want to start off by saying Thank you! You have obviously put a decent amount of thought, not to mention typing, into this post and I very much appreciate that. This is exactly what I meant when I asked for "Constructive feedback"!

So I see you pretty much scrapped about 75% of it right off the bat, and I agree with you on that part. There are much room for improvements, and you've got a bunch of interesting ideas here. As mentioned before, wording is my bane. So I'm grateful for any help in that department. I also appreciate when you say "I see what you were going for here, but it doesn't really work" instead of saying something like "that's just a dumb idea".

3rd lvl
The change to "Force Over Finesse" is a given. As you said, why remove a limitation just to add another?
Adding Professional Vandal right off the bat is also a great way to set the mood for the Archetype. The solution for "within 5 feet" is pretty obvious now that you mention it, don't know what I was thinking there. And the "Siege damage" change is a really neat alternative, even though the numbers could get pretty ridiculous. But I guess it wouldn't really break the game, considering the limitations.

The Grapple escape is a very interesting idea, also great flavor! So that's a given.
I like the "No disadvantage from medium armor" part, but it's pretty much half the Medium Armor Master feat, which is kind of a problem IMO. I agree that it fits and that it is arguably kind of needed, but I don't really like the intrusion on the MAM feat.

And the Throw range is a goner, no question about that.

9th lvl
Cunning Action Shove sounds like great fun! Flavor vise the Rogue throws in a kick or two between the weapon strikes, targeting the knees for prone or aims straight at the chest for a push. Typical dirty fighting, I like it!

I also thought about Intimidation, as you mentioned it. Maybe an ability that gives you advantage on intimidation checks if you smash an object (of at least small size?) as you spit your very unveiled threats in someones face? A bit more interesting than just giving a straight stat bump to intimidation I think. It could be useful, but mostly it's a flavor thing I suppose. Would create interesting situations though, from a RP perspective at the very least. But I don't think that's quite enough in itself and I don't know if lvl 9 is the place for it to be at.
Would also be cool to have a Cunning Action Intimidate ability, but it would be pretty limited depending on what you are fighting. Dragons for example wouldn't really care much now would they?

13th lvl
Your point regarding Strength Proficiency is pretty solid, I agree. But I feel like the Brute needs something along that line. And while chronic advantage on Strength Checks and saves is a very clean solution that doesn't mess anything up, I feel it is a bit plain. That doesn't have to be a bad thing though, the Archetype already has a bunch of whacky abilities so maybe it could use something straight and simple? Idk, have to think about that one.

Would it be possible to have an ability that changes your proficiency from Intelligence saves to Strength saves instead? Meaning you would be proficient with Dexterity and Strength saves from then on. Or would that just be messy? It would fit the theme pretty well. Just a thought.

17th lvl
Well I think the Extra Attack is rather neat. It makes a pretty clear statement to other Rogues, and an additional opportunity to land a sneak attack is not bad. It feels very iconic so I'd like it to stay.

The dice bump comment made me laugh. You do have a point about the sheer amount of d8's required for the ability to work smoothly and how that could actually be a realistic problem. But then again, more than a handful spells uses the same number of d8's or even a few more than that. But sure, a Rogue uses Sneak Attack every turn if they can while casters probably won't spam d8-based-spells all day long. But I personally like the bump and also think that people will probably find it a small enough nuisance to still enjoy the larger die anyways.
But the bump as you said, should be more of a bonus feature that comes as a side dish to something else, rather than a primary feature of any given level. A pure damage buff isn't really that interesting in itself. So maybe a 9th level ability that reads something like "when you reach 9th level, your Sneak Attack die becomes a d8, and a d10 at 17th level", in addition to the Cunning Action Shove, for example. It could be a bit much, not sure.

The shtick thing kinda bothers me. I totally agree with you, but I'm completely blank on ideas. Maybe it would work with a "once per short/long rest" kind of ability/special attack, as a supplement to the Extra Attack and die bump? Kind of a one use Falcon Punch or something? Idk, but yeah, this kinda thing sure needs a unique and iconic capstone.

And yeah, ribbons are great. I love em. But then again, I don't really have any interesting ideas as of right now, but that's definitely something to think about.

I Really like the "Advantage when outnumbered" ability. It is a very interesting mechanic that promotes reckless play styles. It also fits the theme pretty darn well. But it could be slightly redundant if you are able to knock people on their asses as a bonus action, granting advantage/Sneak Attack. They work totally differently, and it saves you the bonus action and is a guaranteed Sneak Attack even against strong opponents, sure. But I feel that they may overlap slightly?
Also, I don't really know where to put it. I'd like to get from the start, much like the Swashbuckler, but it's kinda cramped at 3rd level already.

 

[Bacon of immorality]

[MENTION=6786252]Mephista[/MENTION] Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I must say that I really enjoyed this part:

So, lets put aside the accusations of min-maxing here. Classes are more than just sets of rules. They're designed to look at archetypes and jobs in a roleplay perspective.

This is a big part of the reason I made this thread. I know enough about Min/Maxing and Multi classing to make a "great" Brute/Brawler using the tools the PHB provides. I've done that, it's time for something new. What I am after here is a concept of "A Rogue gone Rogue", in a way. Someone who's simply had enough of all the cloak & dagger shenanigans that they've decides to step off and walk their own path.

While medium armor is a necessity here, why martial weapons? What purpose does smashing objects have for the character?

And that's why the Martial weapons and Medium armor proficiencies are both important, and also the reason this individual would rather break down a door than to fiddle with it's lock. It's the kind of person that most likely hates other Rogues as well as their way of life, and wants to make a statement with their way of life. But at the same time, deep down they are struggling to let go of their past. The whispering voice in the back of their head that tells them "You are what you are, and that will never change".
That's why this is an Archetype rather than a completely different Class. It is supposed to be a Rogue. Not a Fighter, not a Barbarian, not any other class, not even a few levels of another class for that matter. Nothing, but a Rogue.

And if people want to multi class then just do it! I'm not saying "This Archetype can't be Multi classed into or out of". I'm just saying that all classes and Archetypes are primarily designed with a theme in mind and within themselves. Multi classing is a way to make characters more dynamic and that is fine. But when you design a Class or Archetype you aren't really supposed to be thinking "this will be a great compliment to the Fighter if you Multi class a couple of levels into it".

And that is why I like this statement.

Okay, now to talk about actual mechanics. I don't like the removal of the advantage. On the one hand, you can someone within 5' to get off sneak attack, but it sounds like you want to get rid of that. You're effectively eliminating the core fighting style of the Rogue here, and feeling like just another Fighter-type who smacks things hard with larger weapons - just using a single attack instead of multiple. Rogues should always be angling for advantage in some way.

It reminds me that this is still a Rogue who needs to play dirty, one way or the other.

Attacking twice is called Extra Attack. Or using your bonus action or reaction. It should always be tied to something like that. And adding an extra +10dpr from the d6 to d8 bump is rather notable, though I admit to find just pure dpr boost to be a bit underwhelming here. Extra Attack, on its own, is big, because that's another chance to hit with your sneak attack.

Yes I meant to somehow word it into the Extra Attack feature. Even though it shouldn't really matter at level 17, it's not like you can grab 5 levels fighter at that point anyways. But I agree, consistency is important.

And a capstone that basically only bumps damage is pretty boring, I know. As mentioned before, which I totally agree with.

the capstone needs more oomph it needs a cool shtick

The question is, what could that be?

Also, with your restriction removal on sneak attack, you can already use your sneak attack bonus on unarmed attacks, so that's just redundant.

That is actually not the case, according to WotC: "The Sneak Attack feature works with a weapon that has the finesse or ranged property. An unarmed strike isn’t a weapon, so it doesn’t qualify." http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-november-2015
Which means that even if you remove the Finesse restriction, you'd still need a weapon to Sneak Attack. But the unarmed feature is kinda crappy so I'll probably put it in the trash either way.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Hi, and welcome to the boards. This is an exciting first post!

First off, I'll say I support the effort to build a better Strength rogue. It's something I would want to play.

There was a discussion on this subject in August, here, and I think the result was in the end fairly balanced.

For me, the biggest hurdle to your proposal is with Force over Finesse.

Force Over Finesse
Starting at 3rd level, you’re tired of dancing around people all day trying to poke ‘em with you overgrown toothpick. Your Sneak Attack feature is replaced by the Brutal Attack feature instead. The Brutal Attack feature works exactly like the Sneak Attack feature, with the following exceptions:

• You don't need a Finesse or a ranged weapon to use your Brutal Attack.
• You don't need advantage on your attack roll to use your Brutal Attack if the attack is made using a two-handed weapon or a versatile weapon held in both hands.
• You can use your Brutal Attack only when you attack using Strength.

Also, the normal and long range of non-finesse thrown weapons are doubled for you.

I presume the intention is still to do your sneak attack damage here.

Point 3 isn't needed. There's no need to put this limit on; the build is catering to strength regardless.
Point 2 is the big sticking point. I think you need to exclude TH (and perhaps versatile) weapons from benefitting from this. First, it means you aren't able to access sneak attack dice and feats/class features (such as GWF and pole arm master) that benefit such weapons. You're not a fighter. If the benefit applied to any melee weapon that did not have the two-handed or versatile property, I think you'd find more balance.

Additionally, though, you are removing the need for advantage. That is a BIG boost, and it should come at a cost. (What does the guy need to do to get this benefit?). Without any constraints, it's just a ton of extra damage).

Perhaps if you rewrote the ability without the negatives/cancelling, it would be clearer.

In the link above, the proposal (which is balanced, to my eye) has simply "you can use any weapon that doesn't have the two-handed or heavy property with your attack roll to use your Sneak Attack. All the other rules for the Sneak Attack class feature still apply to you. " That's tight, and it doesn't come with the additional weapon proficiencies.

I hope this helps.

 

[Bacon of immorality]

@Kobold Stew
Why thank you! I'm glad to hear it!

First off, I'll say I support the effort to build a better Strength rogue. It's something I would want to play.

Yeah right? It's a really fun concept and many of the other Classes have Archetypes that does something completely different so why not go for the Rogue?

There was a discussion on this subject in August, here, and I think the result was in the end fairly balanced.

That's definitely a Strength based Rogue, no question about it. And it could be really fun to play, trolling people with the grapple mechanics. But that's not really what I'm after. I want the kind of Rogue that kicks people in the face and breaks down reinforced steel doors with one fell swing of his/her greatsword. Or knuckle duster for that matter.

Additionally, though, you are removing the need for advantage. That is a BIG boost, and it should come at a cost. (What does the guy need to do to get this benefit?). Without any constraints, it's just a ton of extra damage).

Yeah you are 100% right. This is a pretty crappy design, and I see that now. It is a goner.

In the link above, the proposal (which is balanced, to my eye) has simply "you can use any weapon that doesn't have the two-handed or heavy property with your attack roll to use your Sneak Attack. All the other rules for the Sneak Attack class feature still apply to you. " That's tight, and it doesn't come with the additional weapon proficiencies.

That is better wording for sure, I'll look into that.
But regarding the rest... one thing that sets the "Brutal Genius" apart from other Rogues is the fact that it knows how to use heavier weaponry and what's more so, knows how to use it effectively with the Sneak Attack.
I really don't see how it would be broken if a Rogue chooses a 2H weapon over dual wielding. If anything, it should be notably less effective due to the fact that a Rogues main damage output comes from Sneak Attack and by choosing one weapon instead of two you practically halve your chance to land an attack. A Rogue doesn't really want a weapon that deals as much damage as possible, the Rogue wants as many chances to strike an opponent as possible, to trigger Sneak Attack. That's my opinion, at least

All feedback helps and is also very much appreciated! Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me

 

[guachi]

The Brutal Rogue 5E

If Variant human take Shield Master Feat

MC into Rogue, take expertise in athletics and whatever else you like.

I snipped a bunch, but this is the core of Zardnaar's point.

I did this exact thing. (Though I went Rogue first. I think I'll switch to fighter first). It's for AL and it's ridiculously fun and I've only played two sessions with him as a F1/R1. I used some of my AL DM XP to start him at level 2. I've DMed almost exclusively for 5e and I love the character. Very powerful at low levels. And you get stuff like this:

Aren't you a Rogue?

Yes.

Don't you want to be, you know, stealthy?

No. I want to smash them in the face with my shield and knock them over. I want to catch the inside of their sword arm with the edge of my shield, unbalance them, and knock them over. And then I want to stab their prone body to death.

Do you even *have* stealth?

[Looks at character sheet] No.