D&D 5E Strength is agile

[Yaarel]

Strength check
Strength includes agility. All of the images here are feats of Strength. In D&D, they are actions that use Strength and Strength checks: climb, high jump (3+ feet), long jump (10+ feet), weight lifting (namely body lifting, using the body as the weight set), and melee attack. Wall running is a application of high jump and sometimes climb. Most of melee combat is various kinds of body stunts. Use the Strength ability for any body stunt.







Dexterity check
Where Strength represents the big robust movements of the body, Dexterity especially represents the small gracile movements of the hand. Use Strength for the accuracy of body stunts. But use Dexterity for the accuracy of precision stunts. If the challenge is more like grappling or moving a sword, then use Strength. But if the challenge is more like aiming an arrow or moving a surgery scalpel, then use Dexterity.




This is what ‘agile’ people look like: Muscular
Here is an image of the Team USA Gymnastics, the mens division, while competing in Brasil. The picture shows them relaxing on the beach. These gymnasts are extremely muscular - even when zero steroids are present. Actualizing agility, such as moving ones own body on a pommel horse, high bar, parallel bars, and tumbling floor, requires and develops extreme Strength. Conversely, being strong enables one to maneuver ones own bodyweight, and makes it possible to do agile actions such as a ‘hand spring’. If a person cannot even to do a handstand pushup, something like a hand spring is even less doable. Agility is explosive Strength and bodily mobility.




Body Stunts
Translating into D&D, this is less of a case of using Strength and Dexterity at the same time. It is more of a case of using Strength for the innate ‘proficiency’ with ones own body, similar to a proficiency with a longsword that also requires Strength. Wielding ones body requires even more Strength than wielding a sword. Like the proficiency to wield a sword, a character that has high Strength and high level can wield their body accurately and masterfully. Actions that apply Strength also necessarily apply ‘agility, reflex, balance, and poise’. Body stunts are agility stunts, including climb, long jump, body lifting, grappling, and so on. Body stunts are a special category of coordination, and in D&D, it is normally the Strength ability that represents it.

Use the Strength ability for any and every body stunt. Invest in Strength if you want a hero that is mobile and agile.

 

[Yaarel]

I intended the images to be smaller with thumbnails. But if it is ok, it is worth seeing better these amazing stunts of the human body.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Umbran]

I find that the tactic of using a bazillion images of different people dong the same things over and over again is not terribly convincing. Yes, you can find a bunch of images of folks doing handstands. That's not a good argument. I say you need reasoned arguments, not artwork.

you can't just present images of people doing things that we might call for strength and/or dex checks, and assert they are all strength, to be terribly convincing. An image does not actually tell me what game mechanic I am using. The fact is that the game stats are abstractions for things that aren't independent in the real world - you'll find tons of images of long-distance runners that look muscular, by dint of how they've gotten rid of every ounce of body fat. Those images are not in and of themselves evidence one way or the other that marathon-running should be Strength as opposed to constitution based. We have to draw a few arbitrary lines here and there.

 

[PnPgamer]

well now I feel like a disgusting blob...

 

[Yaarel]

Finesse check (Strength or Dexterity)
The above images in the Original Post, are reasonably straightforward visualization of actions that apply Strength and Strength checks. D&D heroes are exceptional and amazing, as are the athletes above.

In addition to Strength check and Dexterity check, there are also special circumstances that seem able to benefit from either a Strength check or Dexterity.

These situations resemble the situation with a rapier. Swords normally use Strength because they are part of body agility. But the rapier is a special situation. Obviously, the rapier requires some amount of Strength to wield proficiently - and indeed the rapier actually tends to be longer than a D&D longsword. But average Strength suffices for a rapier, and it benefits highly from the small sensitive wrist flicks of Dexterity. A rapier can be used for precision stunts. While it is possible to wield a rapier robustly and effectively using Strength alone, it is a kind of weapon that allows a combatant to substitute Dexterity instead of Strength.

Likewise, there are special situations that allow the hero making certain kinds of athletic movements by substituting Dexterity of Strength. Classic examples of such use of Dexterity include surviving a fall by landing in a precisely relaxed way, rotating the body while freefalling in a gravityless environment, maintaining balance while climbing (but with no exceptional pullups), and doing aerial cartwheels (but with no high jump, and with head sweeping inches above the ground).

There seems to be a lot of room for DM discretion. The rules seem to encourage the DM to adjudicate each scenario case by case. There is leeway for DMs to interpret the rules differently depending on style.

Having looked into how to represent human agility for a while now, I see the agility and poise of ‘natural athleticism’ to necessarily include the innate balance of the body, while walking, jumping, climbing, and so on.

There for, I now use a Strength check for the balance necessary to walk a tightrope, a task that most might associate with a Dexterity check. It seems to me, the balance necessary for a precarious climb up a mountain cliff is the same as the balance necessary for a tightrope walk. Because upper body Strength is less important for the tightrope walk, the Strength stunt is even easier than the climb. But because upper body is less prominent, tightrope walking is a Finesse check. A player can choose whether to use Strength or Dexterity for this particular body stunt.

The main purpose of including tightrope walking among the ‘naturally athletic’ Strength checks, is so every and any body stunt can be represented simply and effectively with a single D&D gaming mechanic: the Strength check.

Stunts that are part of body movement benefit from Strength.



In 5e, I like the way Jump works. The Jump description should probably be part of the Strength description. It occurs in the Adventuring - Movement - Special Movement section of the Players Handbook.

You can reliably jump a longjump with a distance equal to your Strength score. A Human on average longjumps about 10 feet.

You can reliably jump a highjump, high enough to clear about 3 feet plus your Strength modifier of the ground. On average, a Human highjumps about 3 feet.

Both kinds of jumps require a running start of at least 10 feet, and if the run is unavailable the jump distances achieved are half.

The stronger a hero is, the farther (and more accurately) a hero can jump.

Jumps that exceed the reliable distance, require a Strength check to go exert oneself to go the extra distance. A DM decides how much farther or higher is possible. On the one hand, it cant be much more, because these reliable jumps are already close to the physical limit of an individual hero. On the other hand, the hero should somehow benefit from Strength and skill proficiency to determine jumping reach.



Strength is the necessary determiner of the reliable jumping distance. A hero with 20 Strength can normally longjump about 20 feet. But the check to determine how far the hero can go beyond this seems to be a Finesse check. Strength represents big robust body movement. Dexterity represents small precise movements for noticeable effect. So, for example, a hero with 12 Strength and 18 Dexterity might be able to make a longjump whose distance with effort might reach upto 12 Str score + 4 Dex, a total of a possible 16 feet. Each DM might adjudicate this differently.



There are Strength checks, Dexterity checks, and Finesse checks. DMs can decide for themselves, which apply best.

In general, any motions that seem part of melee combat, grappling, sword aiming, climbing, jumping, exercise balance and poise, sprinting, and so on, are all part of innate athletic aptitude. Strength represents body stunts.

 

[Yaarel]

well now I feel like a disgusting blob...

LOL, me too. I am ok healthwise. But looking at these ‘specimens’ makes me take more interest in doing more exercise - and in more enjoyable ways.

 

[Seramus]

The six categories are, to a certain extent, arbitrary. You could argue that there just be "physical" and "mental" if you would like. Again, given the age and how entrenched these categories are, I don't think it will be persuasive. But maybe I'm wrong.

You could go "Physical", "Social", and "Mental".
Or "Power", "Finesse", and "Resistance".
But then you would be a different popular game.

 

[Yaarel]

I find that the tactic of using a bazillion images of different people dong the same things over and over again is not terribly convincing. Yes, you can find a bunch of images of folks doing handstands. That's not a good argument. I say you need reasoned arguments, not artwork.

you can't just present images of people doing things that we might call for strength and/or dex checks, and assert they are all strength, to be terribly convincing. An image does not actually tell me what game mechanic I am using. The fact is that the game stats are abstractions for things that aren't independent in the real world - you'll find tons of images of long-distance runners that look muscular, by dint of how they've gotten rid of every ounce of body fat. Those images are not in and of themselves evidence one way or the other that marathon-running should be Strength as opposed to constitution based. We have to draw a few arbitrary lines here and there.

They main point of the multiple images, is to drive home the point: the image of an ‘athletic’ ‘agile’ ‘acrobatic’ stunt is the same thing as the image of muscle workouts in an exercise weight training gym. The body stunt that some people make look easy can only happen after the grueling weightlifting. All athletic agility comes from Strength. Some maneuvers might be able to ‘finesse’ Strength, like using ones elbow to support most of the weight of a horizontal handstand, or doing flip by inertia that with ones head slightly above the floor. But the Strength ability covers everything.

 

[Yaarel]

Many reallife people who have extremely high Dexterity are also obese, elderly, and in other ways non-athletic, and are unable to do any of these body stunts. Dexterity cannot do a body stunt.