Remathilis
Legend
See to me, it comes down to: "What do you envision a character with a 20 Strength to look like? How does that look compared to a 20 Dexterity?"
To me, the first four pics are a 20 Str, the bottom four is a 20 Dex.
D&D 5E Strength is agile
- Thread starter Yaarel
- Start date
See to me, it comes down to: "What do you envision a character with a 20 Strength to look like? How does that look compared to a 20 Dexterity?"
To me, the first four pics are a 20 Str, the bottom four is a 20 Dex.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
Having a high dexterity makes you the first guy in a combat to cast a spell that requires no verbal, somatic or material components. You are literally not moving at all, yet dexterity says when you do it.
Having a high force of personality (ie - charisma) makes you difficult to banish from the world, but has no effect when someone chooses to determine your actions externally (ie - dominates you).
Having a high amount of willpower (ie - being able to resist being dominated) also makes you able to pick out small details visually, and allows you to memorize the arcane knowledge that makes up medicine.
A wizard with an incredibly low intelligence cannot give up wizardry and take up a different profession, such as stabbing people with a sword. He is forced to get more and more powerful as a wizard, mastering the most powerful magics.
If you want to know arcane knowledge, you talk to the master of the arcane! A cleric, rogue or bard.
Lots of 5e makes no sense, especially when it comes to skills and stats.
Having a high force of personality (ie - charisma) makes you difficult to banish from the world, but has no effect when someone chooses to determine your actions externally (ie - dominates you).
Having a high amount of willpower (ie - being able to resist being dominated) also makes you able to pick out small details visually, and allows you to memorize the arcane knowledge that makes up medicine.
A wizard with an incredibly low intelligence cannot give up wizardry and take up a different profession, such as stabbing people with a sword. He is forced to get more and more powerful as a wizard, mastering the most powerful magics.
If you want to know arcane knowledge, you talk to the master of the arcane! A cleric, rogue or bard.
Lots of 5e makes no sense, especially when it comes to skills and stats.
Lehrbuch
First Post
LOL. That seems very hard to believe. Dexterity (in D&D) is defined as "Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance."
As others have pointed out, real life athletes (as you have illustrated) are agile and strong (*) (and healthy**).
Of course, in real life Agility, Reflexes, Balance, and Strength are not separate things. They are interconnected. Agility depends on muscle strength. Balance depends on core strength, etc. Which is the sort of complication that the D&D Ability model doesn't model.
* But agile and strong to the best extent required for their sport. A Sumo Wrestler, a Rock Climber, and a Darts Thrower all have different physiques.
** To an extent, depending on sport. High performance athletes are also often in a state of on-going injury.
Yaarel
🇮🇱 🇺🇦 He-Mage
Exactly, ‘agility depends on muscle strength’.
On the other point, many reallife people can have very high Dexterity and be nonathletic and unable to do body stunts. Examples include, archery champions, videogame champions, sewing champions, and so on. Dexterity especially means ‘dexterity’, the ability to use ones hands precisely. I have in mind, the sharpshooter that shot arrows from his wheelchair, my grandmother who knits amazing knots and patterns, a pudgy kit that excels at videogames, and so on.
Sumo wrestles are agile. Rock climbers are especially agile. They use Strength. Their bodies are agile.
By contrast, the dart throwers use Dexterity for small precise motions, and meanwhile, their bodies are nonagile, nonmobile, nonathletic, and stands motionless in barroom. I assume there are dart throwers in wheelchairs that excel in dart throwing competitions.
Lehrbuch
First Post
While I do know that hand-eye co-ordination is a thing, unless these people can also reliably catch a ball, I'm having a hard time understanding them as Dextrous.
In the D&D model, I would say that these are probably just people of normal (perhaps even low) Dexterity who happen to have a Proficiency or Expertise in some narrow skill.
However, D&D isn't a perfect model of real athletic (or mental, or any) skill acquisition. It's just a reasonable model for a game.
Sacrosanct
Legend
Oh.......I just can't.....where to start.
NO NO NO No NO NO no!
There is so much wrong in this thread it hurts my brain. Particularly the athletic trainer part of my brain.
OK, before a bunch of nerd gamers start getting into arguments about how the six stats in D&D work, PLEASE read a human physiology book first. Then focus on the difference between aerobic exercises (which all agility exercises are) and anaerobic exercises (which is focuses on building strength).
Strength and agility are not the same, cannot be swapped interchangeably, and feats of strength can't accomplish feats of agility and vice versa. Every example the OP gave is someone who has BOTH. And by the way, rock climbing doesn't use strength very much. If you try (which most first timers find out in haste), is that you'll burn out before you get 20 feet up. Rock climbing is 99% technique. if you're using arm strength, you're doing it wrong. Your arms and hands are there to keep you attached to the surface. All vertical movement is done with your legs.
In fact, too much strength can hinder you. By and large, strength is increased by increased muscle mass. Arnold had problems using his sword for stunts that relied on agility because his freaking muscles got in the way. Strength is not the same as agility. When we (myself and my fellow people who work out), we have to work on specific exercises that target strength, or target agility. Upping my max bench does absolutely nothing for my agility. And running cones or tires doesn't do a whole lot to increase my strength. So either every professional athletic trainer is wrong, or the OP is.
NO NO NO No NO NO no!
There is so much wrong in this thread it hurts my brain. Particularly the athletic trainer part of my brain.
OK, before a bunch of nerd gamers start getting into arguments about how the six stats in D&D work, PLEASE read a human physiology book first. Then focus on the difference between aerobic exercises (which all agility exercises are) and anaerobic exercises (which is focuses on building strength).
Strength and agility are not the same, cannot be swapped interchangeably, and feats of strength can't accomplish feats of agility and vice versa. Every example the OP gave is someone who has BOTH. And by the way, rock climbing doesn't use strength very much. If you try (which most first timers find out in haste), is that you'll burn out before you get 20 feet up. Rock climbing is 99% technique. if you're using arm strength, you're doing it wrong. Your arms and hands are there to keep you attached to the surface. All vertical movement is done with your legs.
In fact, too much strength can hinder you. By and large, strength is increased by increased muscle mass. Arnold had problems using his sword for stunts that relied on agility because his freaking muscles got in the way. Strength is not the same as agility. When we (myself and my fellow people who work out), we have to work on specific exercises that target strength, or target agility. Upping my max bench does absolutely nothing for my agility. And running cones or tires doesn't do a whole lot to increase my strength. So either every professional athletic trainer is wrong, or the OP is.
Yaarel
🇮🇱 🇺🇦 He-Mage
Yes. There these athletes are similar. They are using the same Strength for ability checks.
There were four examples of body builders. Not shown here, but all of them are known for their heavy weight lifting. One of them is Schwarzenegger. All four of the bodybuilders appear to be using steroids. Schwarzenegger did, and he discusses his use of steroids honestly. Because of artificial hormones, none of these bodybuilders can be considered examples of the ‘natural athleticism’ that Strength represent.
Nevertheless Arnold Schwarzenegger is agile, moreso than the objection seems to imply.
Can Arnold do handstand? Yes.
Can he do handstand pushups? Yes.
Can he walk on his hands? Yes.
Can he run on his hands? Probably (but I havent seen him do it.)
Can he ‘jump’ by means of his hands? Probably better than most humans can.
Can he throw a javelin? Yes.
Can he wield a sword accurately in melee combat? Yes.
Can he play football? Probably.
Can he do longjumps, highjumps, and climb. Yes, yes, and yes. He is an action star. Many of his own scenes are examples of him using Strength for his agility - for explosive strength and body mobility.
Arnold is, in fact, agile.
Despite the fact that Arnold Schwartzenegger drank a Potion of Lifting, that gives him a bonus to Strength (Weightlifting) skill checks, his ‘natural athleticism’ shines thru, and his Strength is inherently agile and makes his body mobile.
Lets look at an other image where Strength is in use for an action, rather than just for flexing and bulging, and ‘looking cool’.
Here there are three women who are circus performers, it seems. Two of them are doing handstands and might be on the verge of doing the body folding of a contortionist. One of them is holding up one of the handstanders.
Now the one who is lifting up the full bodyweight of a handstander is using Strength for ‘lifting’ a ‘load’.
Can the two handstanders use Strength to do their handstand? Yes. But these two in particular seem to be in the situation of a Finesse check, and might be able to substitute their Dexterity instead. If these two remain stationary - motionless and nonagile - with arms locked to support their bodyweight, then even average Strength would be adequate, and they can probably use their Dexterity check for the sake of small sensitive motions. However, once they start moving around on their hands, doing handstand pushups, other kinds of body lifts like hand spins, and so on, then they are using Strength. In this particular case, if they are non-agile and immobile they can use Dexterity, but if they become agile and mobile, then they must use Strength.
Even so, these are probably professional performers and probably have above average Strength. With regard to muscles, strong women tend to bulk up less than strong men do (assuming no steroids). The women here look buff in a feminine way, and their acrobatics that involves lifting and body pushups probably uses various Strength checks.
The next image is an Olympic gymnast on a pommel horse. Yes, he is using Strength for his body lifts and hand spins. Look at his shoulders as he does it.
Next is an image of a gymnast on using Strength for a highjump. It is around the threshold but seems able to clear to clear a hurdle of three or more feet high. The higher this jump is, the more points the judges will award her.
In terms of D&D mechanics, all of these images represent the uses of the Strength ability.
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Yaarel
🇮🇱 🇺🇦 He-Mage
Normally ‘aerobic exercises’ correspond to Constitution checks.
I think you're getting too caught up in a particular sense of the word "agile", and missing the purpose of the system, which is to allow us to distinguish between power and finesse. Yes, many athletes have both, because you need both to be a successful athlete in most cases. However, strength is focused on measuring the weightlifting-type ability, and things like speed and finesse are covered by dexterity. That they often correlate in real people doesn't matter; in real people, intelligence and wisdom (as D&D understands them) correlate pretty well too!
