Strong Fighter, Wimpy Mage

[prosfilaes]

This comes up in knowledge areas too. My highly trained magister in an AE campaign was just out-Knowledge Arcana-ed by our totem warrior who had just recently taken a single rank of K:A. He rolled high, and beat the DC to understand something that had no relevance to anything he had previously experienced. Yet my magic-intensive character, with +10 and 6 levels of mage, by virtue of the dice, came up clueless.

And that doesn't happen in real life? The player with biology degree never goes "those bears in Australia, what are they are called?" and some other player says "Koalas, and they aren't really bears, they're marsupials."

And really, in D&D terms, a +10 isn't that much. They can make a DC 15 check--a mildly hard check--only three times more often than the untrained person (for a skill that can be used untrained).

 

[the_mighty_agrippa]

Yeah, I really hate how some hillbilly fighter makes a Will save on a natural 16 when my +17 Will save Cleric fails on a 1.

Sometimes, it is just random luck. Perhaps the totem warrior had heard a fearsome tale about just this kind of magic around the campfire as a child and the mage had skipped that chapter in school because he was hammered on fermented elderberries.

Several of my coworkers can barely add but still get a paycheck.

 

[Kalshane]

Chiming in on the Knowledge check, how many times have you gone "Wait, I know this..." about a subject you're familiar with, but it just won't come to you, and while you're straining your brain something clicks in someone else's head. Memory is a funny thing.

Why did the big burly warrior try for six seconds and then give up? Why did he step aside for the 75 pound elven mage rather then keep trying on his own? If it's possible for the warrior to make the roll at all then he's going to get it eventually. The purpose of making the roll is to figure out how long it takes him to do so.

Yes. This. 2nd Edition had the weirdness where if you failed a check, you were forever unable to try again unless your ability score changed. In 3.x, if it's possible, then it's just a matter of how long. If a 75lbs weakling shouldn't be able to do it, then the DC should be too high for him to do it.

But, what happens if the Fighters have a Strength of 17 and a Strength of 18. Do you still roll? Probably. What happens if it is 16 and 18? At what point do you just assume that the Troll is too powerful and will win right away as per the rule above? The rules do not really cover this unless you literally use the rule above to only roll when both have the exact same Strength and to always let the slightly stronger opponent win every other time right away. That seems a bit extreme.

I'm not sure I'd rate trying to hold a door closed as a raw strength comparison. There's too many variables in the way of leverage, the mechanical aspects of the door itself, adrenaline, fatique, etc for it to be a simple case of "X is stronger and therefore wins." The dice serve to replicate these variables.

 

[Stalker0]

If you look at most break dcs, most are better than 20...so while a mage could break down a decent wooden door, a strong wooden door or anything iron is not going to go down.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm not sure I'd rate trying to hold a door closed as a raw strength comparison. There's too many variables in the way of leverage, the mechanical aspects of the door itself, adrenaline, fatique, etc for it to be a simple case of "X is stronger and therefore wins." The dice serve to replicate these variables.

The problem is the variability of the dice.

A Troll has a Strength of 23 (+6).

A Child has a Strength of 1 (-5).

So, a Child (whose heavy load is 10 pounds) can keep the door closed against the Troll (whose heavy load is 600 pounds) 9% of the time or 1 time in 11 when using the Ability Checks rule, even though the Troll is 60 times stronger.

This is just plain nonsensical.

The dice should serve as a mechanism when it makes sense for them to do so, but there are cases where it does not. A 10 Strength Wizard should never win, even for a round, against a 23 Strength Troll since the Troll is 6 times stronger than the Wizard.

 

[werk]

Gettin' philosophical

Yeah, the d20 roll is what is causing the problem. i've actually noticed recently that this happens a lot in our games. Removing that randomness and relying more on straight skill or modifiers would probably snip my inane whining.

I noticed the same thing, the large standard deviation, and I think it may be more pronounced in 3.x than previous versions that used a d20. The first thing I did in reaction was to switch to point-buy for character creation, and then I started to think about making changes such as you have suggested, removing die rolls where I didn't think they fit or weren't really necessary.
I later decided to stick with the RAW thinking that the dice rolling and random results was the 'game' part and the character skills and modifiers comprise the 'roleplaying' part of this here roleplaying game. YMMV.

 

[Stalker0]

The problem is the variability of the dice.

This is the problems you encounter when using linear variabilities like a d20 instead of 2d10, 3d6, etc.

Its one of those areas where dm fiat is needed. Now a guy with a +2 or +3 strength difference, there's certainly cases where the weaker guy might be able to hold a door against him. But when your talking +6, or even +10, perhaps the dm should simply say the door is burst open.

However, keep in mind that part of the randomness of an ability check is environmental factors. The example was given of a baby holding the door against a troll. Maybe its not really the baby holding the door, maybe the door was rusted, maybe it was stuck. There are ways to explain it other than saying a baby actually held a door against a troll.

 

[Wolf72]

the elven mage watches the fighter smash into the door a couple of times ... the fighter gets kinda winded and sore. The mage studies the door for a moment and notices the fighter has weakened the hinges and caused some splintering ... wit the right amount of leverage and force he could should be albe to finish the job.

basically what others said, the fighter loosened it up for him.

you could give the door some DR ... you have to beat the DR to open it ... a strong fighter is going to do more physical slam damage than the mage anyday (I hope). That might be more unecessary rules though

 

[FireLance]

The problem is the variability of the dice.

A Troll has a Strength of 23 (+6).

A Child has a Strength of 1 (-5).

So, a Child (whose heavy load is 10 pounds) can keep the door closed against the Troll (whose heavy load is 600 pounds) 9% of the time or 1 time in 11 when using the Ability Checks rule, even though the Troll is 60 times stronger.

This is just plain nonsensical.

The dice should serve as a mechanism when it makes sense for them to do so, but there are cases where it does not. A 10 Strength Wizard should never win, even for a round, against a 23 Strength Troll since the Troll is 6 times stronger than the Wizard.

It seems you prefer a higher degree of realism in your games. I prefer a higher degree of - well, I can't think of a simple, neutral term for it, so I'll just call it "the potential for a heroic outcome" in mine.

I like it that when it counts, even a Strength 1 child has a small chance of keeping the door shut for six seconds against a Strength 23 troll.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I like it that when it counts, even a Strength 1 child has a small chance of keeping the door shut for six seconds against a Strength 23 troll.

Me, too. It's all a matter of description. The troll happened to slip on a banana peel on the other side of the door. Ya know what I mean, Verne?