"Stuck" playing 4e (i.e. unwilling converts)

[Beginning of the End]

But this wasn't true in pre 3E at all. Not if you were playing by the rules anyway.... It was printed in big bold letters that spell acquisition was firmly under the control of the DM.

That's like saying you don't have the ability to customize characters in 3rd Edition if the DM says "core rulebooks only".

Time for research = 2 wks per spell level
Cost of Research = 1d10x100gp per spell level
Success chance = 10% + 1% per ability score + 1% per xp level - (2 x spell level)

I played previous editions for years. I think I can count the number of times spells were researched on one hand. Possibly on one finger.

Wizards got their spells from leveling up and from looting spellbooks. If your DM was castrating your spell options, then your DM was castrating your spell options. I'm not sure what relevance that has on the actual qualities of the game system. And even if it is true, unless they were severely limiting your spell selection, the wizard class was still the most customizable class in previous editions.

Your best shot was by capturing spellbooks, but if you look at any official adventure, they rarely gave out that many captuired spellbooks. I'm not sure where this infinte customization idea come from unless you houseruled extensively.

And I'm not sure where you pulled the word "infinite" out of. I'm assuming your ass.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Ah but how often did this occur? Even the published adventures, while being free with the magical items including scrolls, the poor wizard would have to wait a few levels.

Module A2 p.34-35 -Markessa's spellbooks
Module I1 p.16- The spellbooks of Kwairno & Horan
Module U1 p. p. 12 Sanbalet's spellbook
p. 22 Punketah's spellbook

Module L2 p. 28 Arrness' spellbook
Module I2 p.30 Sekatha's spellbook
p. 22 Gormundel's spellbook

Module L1 p. 10 Telvar's spellbook


I would say pretty often on average.

 

[AllisterH]

And I'm not sure where you pulled the word "infinite" out of. I'm assuming your ass.

Well then, please tell me how much customization a 1e/2e wizard actually had under their control? You acknowledged that in your own game spell research wasn't where it was at, thus the customization wasn't under the control of the player, thus I'm wondering HOW you define the term customization.

Silly me, I always saw the term customization angle as something that the players control and not subject to the whims of a DM.

re: Spell books

Modules did have spellbooks but it was really weird at times how they decided what was in them....

e.g. sometimes the spellbook would simply have X number of spell levels limited to a level of spells or would actually list the spells yet in the same module there would be spellbooks with the same spells.

re: Power of magic
To all those arguing with me, are you simply stating that magic in 1e/2e was even CLOSE to the power of the 3E wizard? I'm curious to see how much resistance there is to that idea...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, one thing that Wizards in earlier editions had over their cousins in subsequent editions is that few of the spells actually had damage caps.

IOW, a spell that did 1d6/caster level simply got more and more powerful as the caster improved. In some cases, those spells also improved their areas and range the same way. Now translate that into an "epic" level game...

A 30th level 1Ed mage is slinging 30d6 fireballs and lightning bolts from those 3rd level slots. The mages from later editions have those slots capped at 10d6.

 

[AllisterH]

Well, one thing that Wizards in earlier editions had over their cousins in subsequent editions is that few of the spells actually had damage caps.

IOW, a spell that did 1d6/caster level simply got more and more powerful as the caster improved. In some cases, those spells also improved their areas and range the same way. Now translate that into an "epic" level game...

A 30th level 1Ed mage is slinging 30d6 fireballs and lightning bolts from those 3rd level slots. The mages from later editions have those slots capped at 10d6.

Now that's one area where spellcasters actually got screwed (technically, 2e wizards had damage caps though). Here's something contradictory from me given my rants on the powering up of the 3e wizard, evocation spells need a SIGNIFICANT bump in power.

I actually think the evocation spells got nerfed really badly in the transition to 3E. 2 reasons for this mainly.

Not only did both monsters and PCs get bonus HP from CON (and let's face it, the addition of CON could almost double the HP gained from just HD) but Healing became much more available to both the PCs and the opposition.

With the crack pipe that is the Wand of Cure Light Wounds, nobody enters battle in 3E at less than full HP past 5th level IME. Thus, what I remember from previous editions of players having to adventure with only half or even quarter HP made evocation spells even MORE effective.

Remember when the cleric only had so many slots left for healing and it didn't make sense to blow a slot on healing if you had at least half your HP left?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

With the crack pipe that is the Wand of Cure Light Wounds, nobody enters battle in 3E at less than full HP past 5th level IME.

I cannot recall a single campaign in which anyone had one of those with more than a few charges.

As the saying goes, your mileage may vary.

 

[Beginning of the End]

Well then, please tell me how much customization a 1e/2e wizard actually had under their control? You acknowledged that in your own game spell research wasn't where it was at, thus the customization wasn't under the control of the player, thus I'm wondering HOW you define the term customization.

What the heck are you talking about?

(1) Even in the most restricted game, the player still gets to choose at least one spell at every level. That's far more options than the fighter had in pre-3rd edition rulesets.

(2) The number of spells a wizard had in their spellbook was always, IME, significantly larger than the number of spells they could cast per day. This meant that, on any given day, the wizard was able to customize their spell selection.

Here's what this conversation looks like to me:

Me: Here's a big box of Legos. Build whatever you want to.
AllisterH: I have no control over what I can build!
Me: What?
AllisterH: You gave me the box of Legos, therefore I have no control over what I can build!

AFAICT, the definition of "customization" you're using is so incredibly narrow that no edition of D&D has ever featured it for the PCs.

To all those arguing with me, are you simply stating that magic in 1e/2e was even CLOSE to the power of the 3E wizard?

No. The 3rd Edition wizard is significantly less powerful, IME. 3rd Edition nerfed a lot of spells.

 

[jasin]

I cannot recall a single campaign in which anyone had one of those with more than a few charges.

Why? Were magic items impossible to buy or make?

 

[AllisterH]

I cannot recall a single campaign in which anyone had one of those with more than a few charges.

As the saying goes, your mileage may vary.

Why don't they have them? They're really inexpensive and are great for after-battle healing....

re: power of the 3e wizard

I'm a little bit surprised that BotE thinks the 3e wizard actually got nerfed. Other than evocation that got nerfed horribly, the 3e wizard made out like a bandit.

From not needing a spells learn roll %, to the change in the initiative system, to the fact that many of the spells now favour the wizard (contrast shapechange for example or any save or die/suck spell) to the easy addition of spell slots in the form of magical items like wands and scrolls, the 3e wizard has it all over the 1e/2e wizard.

As an aside, the pre 3e generalist wizard didn't get one spell per level. They got one spell per SPELL level and this wasn't their choice depending on DM whim. SPECIALIST got one specialist spell of their choice every level.

As well, unless you were rolling straight 17s and 18s, you only knew 9 spells per level and with no hotswapping of spells for level, good luck having the best spell for every situation.

 

[Beginning of the End]

I'm a little bit surprised that BotE thinks the 3e wizard actually got nerfed.

What I actually said is that 3rd Edition nerfed a lot of spells. Which is true.

Other than evocation that got nerfed horribly, the 3e wizard made out like a bandit.

When did stone shape or wish become evocation spells? (To name two off the top of my head.)

But, sure. Other than all the ways in which their powers were nerfed, wizards weren't nerfed. You've formed a beautiful tautology there.

As well, unless you were rolling straight 17s and 18s, you only knew 9 spells per level

You have an interesting definition of the word "only". How many abilities of the 2nd Edition fighter were customizable? How many of those could be re-customized each day?

And yet you claim that the wizard wasn't the class people played when they wanted to customize their character.