Stunlock: A DM's Worst Nightmare

[Tequila Sunrise]

Hi, UK!

Before I continue, I'll mention the last play test I ran, where the solo could attempt saves by taking damage. As expected, it played out very similarly to the control play test where nobody had stun powers -- the solo went down relatively quickly, but made the invoker really sweat on its way down. If the PCs didn't have all of their dailies to unload, the invoker may have KOed once or twice!

All in all, this test showed the best results. Although I'd still like to find a "consolation prize" other than damage that doesn't require tracking.

Just to clarify, when stunned the monster only lost a standard action from one of its turns right? It seems you did, given you state keeping it stunlocked was a two man job.

Correct.

What amazes me is how many darn stunlocking powers the PCs have. I mean you would think after maybe a round or two they would be expended.

In a real game, it probably wouldn't be possible to load up on so many stun powers without begging the DM for home brew. But as [MENTION=43019]keterys[/MENTION] mentioned, there are a lot of powers that accomplish basically the same goal: dominate, "target can't attack," etc.

So at 28th level at least, I think it's very possible for the party to be able to blow two stun-ish powers per round for a few rounds at least. This is a worst-case scenario though, so whether it actually happens depends on your crew.

I'm starting to think (based on the discussion in this thread) that while a basic set of traits to nerf conditions is helpful, that each monster should also have a more specific (and individual) way to deal with them.

I think it depends on how you design monsters. If you have an effective and satisfying standardized trait, as I'm working toward, I think that's enough. If each of your solos is a special snowflake and you have the energy to individualize more, specific anti-effect traits may be more interesting for your players. Or it might go right over their heads, I dunno.

I think I need to change saving throws to the start of their turns in Boss Resilience. Thanks for that.

Glad to be of service!

I will reference D'karr again though, and agree that it is rather frustrating on the player's side when a monster simply shrugs off an effect at the start of its turn. (Your solos have the usual +5 bonus, yes?) I'd recommend at least being upfront and explicit with your players about this: "My solos roll saves at the start of their turn, so expect solos to largely ignore anything but damage."

 

[keterys]

For me, the goal is that affecting a solo should have about the same effect as if the PCs had done that on a standard or maybe an elite. Like the solo should still function at about 3/4 effectiveness.

It's tricky to dance that line, of course.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

Maybe what we could do is apply a D&D Next approach.

Solo Reslience
A solo monster is unaffected by conditions until reduced to 25% of its starting hit points.

Elite Resilience
An elite monster is unaffected by conditions until bloodied.

...I sort of like the above. Simple but effective.

Alternately, you could dampen that down a bit:

Solo Resilience
Until reduced to 25% of its starting hit points a solo monster makes saves against conditions at the start of its turn.

Elite Resilience
Until bloodied an elite monster makes saves against conditions at the start of its turn.

I prefer the simplicity of the first set. What do the rest of you think?

 

[keterys]

Eh, seems too much... there are too many characters who couldn't function in that world.

Also, marked is a condition, and lots of stuff you need to worry about "cannot attack", "loses its next standard action", etc aren't conditions

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey keterys!

Eh, seems too much... there are too many characters who couldn't function in that world.

Specifically the PCs built around action denial I presume you mean.

Also, marked is a condition, and lots of stuff you need to worry about "cannot attack", "loses its next standard action", etc aren't conditions

So we make it "conditions and negative effects".

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Hey guys!

Maybe what we could do is apply a D&D Next approach.

Solo Reslience
A solo monster is unaffected by conditions until reduced to 25% of its starting hit points.

Elite Resilience
An elite monster is unaffected by conditions until bloodied.

...I sort of like the above. Simple but effective.

I like this set better too. Though I think either one would be frustrating for players, with the exception of high-damage alpha-strikers. Maybe I'll give it a go this weekend, just for kicks...

Also, marked is a condition, and lots of stuff you need to worry about "cannot attack", "loses its next standard action", etc aren't conditions

Wait, I've been using 'effects' and 'conditions' interchangeably. What's the diff?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Tequila!

I like this set better too. Though I think either one would be frustrating for players, with the exception of high-damage alpha-strikers. Maybe I'll give it a go this weekend, just for kicks...

I think the benefit to solo and elite monsters outweighs the negatives for players.

I mean stunning the Tarrasque, toppling Demogorgon or dominating Orcus should not be something every PC can do on a whim (even an epic PC). But it could still be possible, when the monsters are on their last legs.

I think I am going to instigate this into my Vampire Bestiary monsters.

Not sure yet what to cut out from my previous Boss Resilience and Boss Monster Traits.

Boss Monster
Each round a solo monster can make two full turns of actions. These activate on two seperate initiatives (initiative score +15 and initiative score +5). On each turn the solo monster can make a standard, move and minor action. The solo monster can make two immediate actions per round (total). But it can only use 1 action point per round.

Boss Resilience
The solo monster makes saves at the end of each of its turns (see Boss Monster). If stunned it loses a standard action from 1 turn. If dazed it loses a minor action from one turn. If immobilized it loses a move action from one turn.

If I am bringing in...

Solo Reslience
A solo monster is unaffected by conditions and negative effects until reduced to 25% of its starting hit points.

I'm wondering what bits of Boss Monster and Boss Resilience can be scrapped. I suppose I could just switch Boss Resilience with Solo Resilience...hmmm.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

If I am bringing in...

Solo Reslience
A solo monster is unaffected by conditions and negative effects until reduced to 25% of its starting hit points.

I'm wondering what bits of Boss Monster and Boss Resilience can be scrapped. I suppose I could just switch Boss Resilience with Solo Resilience...hmmm.

Well Boss Resilience becomes largely redundant in the presence of Solo Resilience, so yeah I'd definitely drop it. (If the players have the right powers left over after chipping away the first 3/4 of the solo's HP, I think they deserve to mop up the final 1/4 in stunlocked safety.)

Whether you drop Boss Monster too depends on how you like your solos, I guess. Do you like your solo basically acting as two elites, or do you like inflicting just one terrifying I'll-bloody-you-with-one-hit turn on your players per round?

I know which I like.

 

[RangerWickett]

Take every condition. Make a lesser version of that condition. When an elite or solo above the threshold would be affected by the condition, the lesser version happens instead.

Blinded? Bleary incurs a -2 penalty to attack rolls and Perception checks.

Dazed? Befuddled means the target grants combat advantage and cannot take reactions or interrupts.

Dominated? Compelled means that the PC in control chooses a standard action each round for the target. If the target doesn't take that action by the end of its turn, it becomes dazed until the end of its next turn.

Immobilized? We've already got slow.

Prone? We've already got slow.

Restrained? Slowed.

Slow? Eh, we can keep it.

Stunned? Dazed.

Weakened? Fatigued means the target does 75% damage.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Take every condition. Make a lesser version of that condition. When an elite or solo above the threshold would be affected by the condition, the lesser version happens instead.

This might be ideal, except for the many special snowflake conditions that PCs have access to. And I'd rather not just ignore them, or have upper caste monsters totally shut those down.