Stunlock: A DM's Worst Nightmare

[S'mon]

Hmmm, seems either way, somebody's getting nerfed.

What about this idea:

Action Recovery
By expending an action point at the start of its turn the monster can undo all conditions and negative effects.

This way a monster (either Elite or Solo) has the option of using action points for defence or attack.

If the Fighter stuns the solo monster, at the very least he is stripping it of an action point (in effect a standard action).

Any thoughts?

I used to have that as a house rule; the loss of a standard action ought to work ok, since per RAW even a Solo can't spend 2 APs in 1 round.

However, the main benefit of stunning is to give the other PCs a free round of attacks vs the monster; Action Recovery still allows for that whereas recovery at start of turn does not. So again I would tend to reserve this for rare solos; eg very slippery ones and very high Epic super-powerful ones.

Another problem is that it strongly favours at-will short duration/eont stun effects, which remain very powerful.

Finally, the reason I no longer use this house rule is that it creates a more boring fight by evening out peaks & troughs of danger - it harms the cadence of battle. Having the Solo lose a round while PCs wail on him, then come back next round, spend an AP and really wail on them, makes for a much more interesting and scary fight.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

Booked that holiday yesterday. Airlines are dirty gits. Price was basically the same as last years despite me only taking hand luggage this time. So in the space of 12 months they have upped the cost 20%; and that's it being booked over 4 months in advance. Incredulous...but anyway...

I used to have that as a house rule; the loss of a standard action ought to work ok, since per RAW even a Solo can't spend 2 APs in 1 round.

However, the main benefit of stunning is to give the other PCs a free round of attacks vs the monster; Action Recovery still allows for that whereas recovery at start of turn does not. So again I would tend to reserve this for rare solos; eg very slippery ones and very high Epic super-powerful ones.

Another problem is that it strongly favours at-will short duration/eont stun effects, which remain very powerful.

Finally, the reason I no longer use this house rule is that it creates a more boring fight by evening out peaks & troughs of danger - it harms the cadence of battle. Having the Solo lose a round while PCs wail on him, then come back next round, spend an AP and really wail on them, makes for a much more interesting and scary fight.

The problem is though, that the solo monster is just going to get condition-locked by multiple PCs, each round. Nothing's harming the 'cadence of battle' as much as rendering the solo threat nothing more than a sack of hit points.

We know that the hit point threshold for conditions is the way 5E is leaning to. Personally I think it makes sense because condition locking is unfair on the more powerful (solo and elite) monsters.

If your fighter knows that his stun power won't work until an enemy is bloodied* (and certain existing powers already have this stipulation) then I don't see what the problem is.

*Or in the case of a solo monster, "maimed" (if we use that terminology for 25% of its hit points).

More and more I am leaning towards "Immune to conditions until bloodied (elite) or reduced to 25% hit points (solo)".

I mean you stated that your Fighter choose that stun power specifically for fights with solo monsters. So how often do you encounter them, maybe once every 6-7 encounters? Your fighter already has about 10 different powers so its not like everything hinges on this one either.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Hmmm, seems either way, somebody's getting nerfed.

It's like politics that way, eh? No matter what happens, nobody gets what they want.

Action Recovery
By expending an action point at the start of its turn the monster can undo all conditions and negative effects.

I think players will like this one, but I'm not sure it'll be very satisfying from the DM's PoV.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I've settled on...

Too Savvy for Tricks: Instead of save bonuses, elites and solos can attempt to temporarily ignore harmful effects by taking damage. Here’s how it works: at the start of its turn, the monster decides which effects it wants to ignore. It takes 1d6/tier damage for each effect it wants to ignore -- I suggest letting players roll that -- and then the monster rolls a save against each effect. (Solos get +5 to this save.) If the save succeeds, the monster ignores the effect until the end of its turn.

I like Too Savvy because it grants elites and solos the condition resistance they deserve, but gives players 'consolation damage' and maintains the possibility that a condition might actually work. Also, since Too Savvy only allows the monster to temporarily ignore conditions, (save ends) conditions are still better than UENT ones.

 

[S'mon]

Hey S'mon!

Booked that holiday yesterday. Airlines are dirty gits. Price was basically the same as last years despite me only taking hand luggage this time. So in the space of 12 months they have upped the cost 20%; and that's it being booked over 4 months in advance. Incredulous...but anyway...

Sometimes they actually charge you more for booking further ahead!

 

[Jhaelen]

What about this idea:

Action Recovery
By expending an action point at the start of its turn the monster can undo all conditions and negative effects.

Sounds good!

I've just had another crazy idea: What if a solo could get rid of conditions by sacrificing hit points?

Now all it would take is to decide just how many hit points are appropriate for any given condition...

 

[Arctic Wolf]

Sounds good!

I've just had another crazy idea: What if a solo could get rid of conditions by sacrificing hit points?

Now all it would take is to decide just how many hit points are appropriate for any given condition...

You could make it so that Solos have to give up 10% of their hp to remove all effects and elites give up 20%. If these %s are too low it can be ajusted and I think having a specific cost to remove each one would be a pain in the ass. Plus these monsters are in the upper tier of difficulty, so they should just be able to remove all conditions. Just my opinion though

We can call it:
Overwhleming Will: When the monster starts it's turn, and before it takes ongoing damage, it can sacrifice 10%/20% of its total HP to remove all effects and conditions on itself.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Jhaelen!

Sounds good!

Glad you like it, although I am not so keen now.

My current favourite is:

Solo Resilience
The solo monster is unaffected by conditions or negative effects until reduced to 25% hit points or less.

Supplementing this would be:

Weak Spot
Striking the monster's weak spot ignores any resistances and the Solo Resilience trait.

Attacking a weak spot might involved skill checks (like climbing on its back or entering its space and avoiding getting trampled). It would be tailored to every monster.

So for instance a giant crab monster might have Resist All 15. But its weak spot is its soft underbelly (Vulnerable All 15). A character can enter its space by making an Acrobatics check to dodge the scuttle of its legs. If the check is successful you can attack its weak spot. If unsuccessful the character gets trampled and the crab makes a basic attack against them.

I've just had another crazy idea: What if a solo could get rid of conditions by sacrificing hit points?

Now all it would take is to decide just how many hit points are appropriate for any given condition...

I have considered this approach, but it looks like you'd need to sort each condition separately AND by tier. So the solution just seems very long-winded, especially if it needs included in a stat-block.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I've just had another crazy idea: What if a solo could get rid of conditions by sacrificing hit points?

Now all it would take is to decide just how many hit points are appropriate for any given condition...

You could make it so that Solos have to give up 10% of their hp to remove all effects and elites give up 20%. If these %s are too low it can be ajusted and I think having a specific cost to remove each one would be a pain in the ass. Plus these monsters are in the upper tier of difficulty, so they should just be able to remove all conditions. Just my opinion though

This is more or less what I've arrived at, though the details are different.

 

[Jhaelen]

Solo Resilience
The solo monster is unaffected by conditions or negative effects until reduced to 25% hit points or less.

Yeah, I had read about that idea on Mr. Mearl's Blog for 5e. I don't particularly like it. I prefer if there's at least a chance to affect a solo early in the encounter (see below). I could also imagine an ability to delay conditions, though this would have the disadvantage of having to track them all.

Weak Spot
Striking the monster's weak spot ignores any resistances and the Solo Resilience trait.

Attacking a weak spot might involved skill checks (like climbing on its back or entering its space and avoiding getting trampled). It would be tailored to every monster.

This, however, is really cool! I think this could work in tandem with the above.

This is also an extension of a 5e idea, right? I seem to recall something about 'turn undead' affecting monsters in different ways, as described in their entry. I immediately thought, this would be cool for _every_ kind of monster and not just to determine the effect of 'turn undead'.

Back in the eighties when I designed my own rpg I had plenty of 'puzzle' monsters that could only be defeated by a particular course of action. So, I really love this idea!