Stupid player decisions + bad dice rolls = dead PC

[Wombat]

Not only have I grieved over certain PCs that have died in some of the games I have GM'd, but our group went as far as to hold a wake for one of them -- we got together the next week and each player, staying in character, raised a glass of preferred beverage, and told stories of the "deceased", ending with the person who played the character. It was actually a grand session.

For many years I ran Ars Magica -- due to the nature of the game, you tend to make multiple characters and develop what amounts to a small village. At the beginning of one of the campaigns we started keeping track of every character (PC and NPC alike) who died; eventually we also came to keep track of births. The sense of community that these lists created was staggering -- the players felt they were part of something much larger than just finding booty, vis, and books.

Deaths happen. I prefer games where deaths are special; this is why I severely limit Raise Dead and similar spells in my games. When someone dies, they die, except under extreme circumstances. Players work very hard to stay alive, but this has also led to amazing moments of sacrifice -- a player taking an action knowing it will result in the character's death, true, final, and only death, and still taking it for the good of the group.

 

[Czhorat]

The bad thing is that if you fudge too often in favor of the players you sap all feelings of suspense and excitement from the game. Nobody's going to believe a threat if you always fudge to save them from their own mistakes, and nobody will bother trying to be smart if you save them from their own stupidity. That being said...

In the first case (the orc ambush), you seem to have done the right thing by not having the group slaughtered. Unless they were failing to take what should have been obvious precautions, the group could hardly be blamed for missing spot checks and getting caugth in a pitched battle that they couldn't win. If they start out surrounded through no fault of their own and the dice go badly, then I think they deserve a little assist.

The other situation is worse. It would have been preferable for the cleric character to die, but if he didn't there's no reason you couldn't have had the villain take the bard prisoner - perhaps to torture or interrogate him, perhaps even to strip him of his equipment and set him free as a taunt to the rest of the party. Since your villain took the time to chase the cleric instead, perhaps you could start next session by declaring that you forgot to roll the bard's 10% chance to naturally stabilize, and he did at, say, -8 hit points? You could even fudge the unconciousness rules a bit and rule that the through his blood and the growing fog of unconciousness, the bard saw his companion drink a healing potion, throw something, and run away. You could let the players deal with the recriminations about leaving a companion to die while in character.

As an aside, what level are these characters? Are they high enough to justify being raised, or to be able to do it themselves? Or is it new character time for the bard's player?

 

[pogre]

Do the other DMs out there grieve a little when a PC dies?

Buttercup,

You know I do.

My first story hour campaign ended in a massive TPK. It was a situation where the players made a solid plan and then proceeded to ignore it completely. I had to let the dice fall where they did...

I think you handled the orc ambush appropriately. The bard PC's death will help reinforce death is a real and a definite possibility in your campaign - and she did make a mistake. I hate it when characters die, but you cannot always pull punches.

You problem player is another issue - never fudge a die roll if he's being foolish. It's an honor when people make special efforts to be at your game - but it sounds like he is not the most fun person to game with.

I hear/read some frustration in your post. Hang in there - I know you are a great DM just by your insightful posts!

Take care!

 

[Celtavian]

re

I don't like PC death either, but I usually let the dice fall where they may. Its up to the PC's to dig themselves out of a hairy situation.

I have instituted a Hero Point system for those times when bad die rolls rather than bad planning cause trouble and possible death for the PC's. I really don't like the idea of bad rolls killing a party of heroes. The hero point system has been a very effective system for keeping the PC's alive when bad die rolls would have killed them. It is also helps the story alot by allowing PC's to do things the rules don't cover like living when they should be dead.

PC death is a part of any campaign. As a DM who invests alot of time trying to make it fun for the players I feel I have a stake in their characters. I don't really want to see them die unless I plan it or it is for a heroic reason. Sure reality is not so kind, but I play D&D to get away from reality. I don't feel subjecting the PC's to it is really necessary.

 

[S'mon]

I feel sad sometimes when PCs die who don't deserve to - NPCs too (especially Cohorts). That said, I don't fudge rolls or reduce (or add) enemy hit points, and if I'd been running the orc ambush most likely I'd either have TPK'd the party, or killed some PCs and captured the ones who stabilised - orcs like to take slaves ("Mummy, where do half-orcs come from?"). Although I tend to be wary of using orcs vs low-mid level PCs, since an early game where a brand new player's Fighter-3 got dropped from 30 hp to 0 hp by an orc great axe crit in the very first blow of the battle. I like gnolls - they're more durable, not such a huge damage output, less "eggshell armed with hammer".

 

[S'mon]

Buttercup,

You know I do.

My first story hour campaign ended in a massive TPK. It was a situation where the players made a solid plan and then proceeded to ignore it completely. I had to let the dice fall where they did...

Pity you didn't recount the story of the TPK - I was looking forward to reading it.

 

[green slime]

Hello Buttercup.

I too believe that rolling in the open promotes better behaviour from gung-ho types, who can decide to do all sorts of rash and stupid decisions. They actually see that you roll 20's and know you are going to crit, they cringe, and learn.

Those players who take calculated risks are the ones who survive, those who just dash in expecting the DM to save them no matter how badly things go can really ruin a good nights gaming.

In your particular situation, with the orcs, I would not have pulled punches on the rolls, I would have instead offered those standing an opportunity to surrender or flee (Perhaps the offer of surrender comes from an orc warrior with his blade at the throat of a downed PC). Smart players, sometimes, when faced with overwhelming force, will acknowledge it is better to surrender, because then at least there is an in game reason to keep the idiots alive!

Perhaps the orcs are facing some hideous problem they can't deal with themselves. Perhaps the PC's are to offered to the orc god Malybuyiget on the next new moon in a bloody ceremony involving cliffs, and the traditional orc sport of torso-tossing. But at least it gives players an opportunity to use other skills and abilities.

The same goes for the bard, actually.

There are other people around during the rucus. Perhaps someone managed to stop the bard from bleeding to death, but he is now in the care of the bad guy, who is going to pump him for information when he comes round. Or perhaps a dinky witch who needs a new toy...

As to the sanctuary mistake, players, even the most experienced, can make all sorts of mistakes when they realise they are in over their heads. I've seen some truly remarkable conclusions and actions, resulting in complete mayhem.

Still sounds like a fun game!

 

[Darklone]

I roll in the open too. PCs die now and then... sadly most often the good players who try to save the group while the wimps run away.

The first player casualty in the campaign was such a case, one player took on two ogres to get the others out of the mess. The only other PC who could have helped (Big bad halforc with big bad axe) preferred to use his crossbow from a safe distance.

I wondered if those criticals were the reason why the new orcs in the 3.5 MM got falchions now ?

 

[Buttercup]

As an aside, what level are these characters? Are they high enough to justify being raised, or to be able to do it themselves? Or is it new character time for the bard's player?

It's new character time. I haven't ever allowed resurection in my games. And even if I did, the two clerics are multiclass, with only one level of cleric each, and the party is in the back of beyond. There isn't even anyone in town who is high enough level to raise the bard.

The main reason it galls is because it should have been the cleric who died.

 

[Darklone]

The bad guys never die, they run.