Stupid player decisions + bad dice rolls = dead PC

[Berandor]

So I started fudging big time. Orc warriors that I had statted with 20 hit points, suddenly had 8. I "stopped" rolling criticals. They all managed to survive, but only because the orcs ignored any PC who was down, and concentrated on hacking up the ponies.

I think one way or the other, you did right here. You could also have the orcs fight among themselves, fall from the ledge, or what else. Averting the TPK in this instance was, I think, correct. The exact way and the amount of pain you deal out in the process might be debatable, but killing everybody wouldn't have been wise.
And hero points can make for a good way to get around this bad rolling.

(snip) some scruffy guy had been asking about a party travelling with a woman and a newborn, (snip) well, the bard and the monk/cleric decided to go check the guy out.

So these two idiots (emphasis mine) inquire about the guy at the inn, then go upstairs to investigate. He is sleeping in his locked room. They knock on the door and ask to talk to him. And then they pick a fight with him.

I don't know exactly how they picked a fight, but the other behaviour doesn't seem too stupid to me. Someone asks for me, I go look him up, knock on his door, talk to him. You already described the players as "idiots" before they started the fight. I guess it's because you are mad at them for the latter, but perhaps you misinterpreted some of their actions?

He almost died three times in one session, because he charges into battle with no weapons & no armor.

He's a monk/cleric. Of course he's unarmed/unarmored.

If he had died, I might not have minded so much. He actually deserves it.

That's pretty harsh. If you do feel so strongly about a character or player, then I suggest you talk to him off-game about it.

But anyway, he didn't heal his companion, instead choosing to save himself and let her die. I don't think that's the action of a good character.

I'd say that depends on the character in question.
Don't try to force an alignment on the player, btw. Note these things and gradually slide him over to neutral, of need be, with all consequences (lost spells?).
Also, it could still be in character without being a major alignment transgression.

I mean, he cast sanctuary on himself so he could rummage in his pack for a healing potion, which he then drank himself, instead of curing the bard. Then he threw something at the villain, thus cancelling the sanctuary spell, and ran. He could have swapped out another spell for a CLW and healed the bard before negating the sanctuary spell.

O.k., that's pretty bad.

And now, I also have a dead bard, who until today, never did anything stupid. That one dumb decision killed her.

But it didn't need to. Imprisonment, stabilization, an intrepid maid/servant/innkeeper/guest saving him, etc.

So, I feel what happened is tragic and a little stupid, but you had your part in it, too. Sorry if I come across as brash, no offense intended, just a little nudge
My suggestion: Talk to the monk's player, then talk to the bard's player, then decide what you're gonna do. Learn from this situation and grow to be an even better DM.

Do the other DMs out there grieve a little when a PC dies?

Of course. We're sentimental crying bastards.
Or is that just me?

ETA:

The main reason it galls is because it should have been the cleric who died

Again, you should probably revisit your problems with the player/character and talk to the player about it. Meet for a coffee or something, and defuse this situation. It can only lead to certain doom

 

[Xavim]

The bad guys never die, they run.

He who fights and runs away,
Lives to fight another day!

 

[Darklone]

He who fights and runs away,
Lives to fight another day!

He who wimps and runs away,
lives to run another day.

That's more like it.

Buttercup: That dude had Imp Crit? And slashed the players down in one round? A level 8 fighter?

Which level did the players have?

 

[ruemere]

(imho)

[...]
The party, who was travelling in the mountains, was ambushed by orcs. They were travelling along a 20 ft wide path, with a high ledge on their left, and a sheer drop off on their right. It was snowing, so visibility was low. When I asked for spot checks, no one rolled higher than a 6. The 12 orcs rapelled down the cliff and surprised the party. 5 orcs in front, and the rest ranged along side. The orcs proceeded to roll natural 20 after natural 20, while the party was rolling 1s, 2s, 3s, and once a 10 (which, given that players BAB, actually hit). In the first round two PCs were in negative hit points. By the third round, another one was dying, and only two orcs had taken any damage at all. So I started fudging big time.[...]

Ummm... how did the orcs knew about the characters if the visibility was "low"? Secondly, how do you define "low visibility"? 30'? If so, should not the orc get some penalties to their movement rates thus giving the characters one round to prepare?
(disclaimer: I do not know party levels/abilities/magic items)

[...]
So these two idiots inquire about the guy at the inn, then go upstairs to investigate. He is sleeping in his locked room. Do they go and get a meat shield? Nooooo. They knock on the door and ask to talk to him. And then they pick a fight with him. And guess what? He rolls a critical in the first round, and drops the bard to -6 HP. See, he had Weapon Focus, Longsword and Improved Critical, Longsword. The cleric would have died too, but he ran out of the room and down the stairs while he still had 5 hit points left. The bad guy ran after him with his longbow, but the village watch didn't take kindly to the sight of a guy shooting arrows at a fleeing hero, so they knocked him out.
[...]

Did they know beforehand that the bad guy in question was indeed bad/evil? Did they know have a reason to suspect that the guy in question is likely to risk bloodshed in a middle of a peaceful city? Did they feel the bad guy in question was going to submit to them?

If any answer to one of the above is "yes", they were only guilty of insufficient paranoia. Some people in d20 try to parley
If the closest answer to "yes" is "yes, but", well, they were warned and they took their chances.

[...]Well, the monk/cleric is an idiot. He almost died three times in one session, because he charges into battle with no weapons & no armor. If he had died, I might not have minded so much. He actually deserves it. And for a PC with a wisdom score of 16, he is being played remarkably like a PC with a wisdom score of 8. Clearly I'll have to talk to the player about this. But anyway, he didn't heal his companion, instead choosing to save himself and let her die. I don't think that's the action of a good character. I mean, he cast sanctuary on himself so he could rummage in his pack for a healing potion, which he then drank himself, instead of curing the bard. Then he threw something at the villain, thus cancelling the sanctuary spell, and ran. He could have swapped out another spell for a CLW and healed the bard before negating the sanctuary spell. So, I have a PC who isn't being roleplayed according to his ability scores and alignment. (This is my most experienced player, so he can't use that excuse.)[...]

Did the Monk/Cleric have the reason to suspect that the bad guy in question was a weak willed low-level individual (i.e. someone easily succumbing to Sanctuary)? If yes, well, he roleplayed a frightened person. If not, he lost his head - it happens from time to time (talking about roleplaying, players tend to lose their wits if suddenly confronted with danger... and, since it was the third brush with death, it stands to a reason for the character to be paranoid).

By the way, why did the bad guy do such a stupid thing to follow a character in the street obviously trying to commit a murder?

And now, I also have a dead bard, who until today, never did anything stupid. That one dumb decision killed her.

The rest of the party blames the monk/cleric, even though they don't know the details. They figure that he's always doing stupid things, and the bard never did, so he must be responsible for her death.

I respectfully disagree. Risking one's life to prolong a life of a dying comrade in face of such a superior foe is stupid (LG Paladins and Clerics may differ in their opinion) as any foe with a bit of experience is going to either coup de grace (and wait for the sanctuary to run out to finish the remainder). It may be even argued that it took a lot of courage and quick thinking to taunt the foe into following you thus sparing a friend from coup de grace and lead the unaware foe into an ambush (cityguards) - the friend had a chance (4 times 5%) to stabilize, hadn't he? In other words, it can be argued that overwhelmed Monk risked everything (by dropping down Sanctuary) to save his friend.

(disclaimers: I do not know the details, my opinions, or rather alternative interpretation is based on your account of events)

Do the other DMs out there grieve a little when a PC dies?

Yes. Of course. But the wonderful thing about RPGs is that there is no uber-author to save a character through deus ex machina solutions... or, if there is, well, it's not really a game but a story

BTW, all of this is just a voice of a devil's advocate. If possible, could you tell us a bit more about the events which took place? I am sure I am missing something...

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Leopold]

PIsh, your too kind a DM, I woulda slaughtered them and kept moving, new PC time.

 

[Rel]

Hmm, the thread title pretty closely describes the character deaths that have happened in my campaign. And I'm glad for it too.

Don't get me wrong, I try to give my players plenty of opportunity to build their characters personalities and breathe life into them. It stinks when they die. But it makes the game more fun and exciting for everyone, knowing that the possiblity exists that they may not live to see the next session.

As others have mentioned above, we use "hero points" (we call them "chips" since we use red poker chips to represent them) to give them a slight extra edge for those critical moments but those aren't always enough to save them. Very little fudging in even possible since we roll in the open (mostly using large sized dice too so everyone can see the results easily) and what fudging is available, I never use. But the payoff is that the party knows that whatever they accomplished they did it on their own merits.

That said, I learned a lot looking back on my last campaign and I noticed that I have too much of a tendency to design foes that challenge the party to within an inch of their life. I need to save those for the really climactic battles and take things down a notch for the day in-day out fighting. That'll leave me a little more margin for error.

But in the cases you describe above, it sounds like you handled it pretty well, Buttercup. Sometimes bad things happen to good characters and that's just the way it goes. Try not to let it get you down.

 

[Zerakon]

But it didn't need to. Imprisonment, stabilization, an intrepid maid/servant/innkeeper/guest saving him, etc.

So, I feel what happened is tragic and a little stupid, but you had your part in it, too. Sorry if I come across as brash, no offense intended, just a little nudge

Bah! I think Buttercup was right to not save the bard. I'm presuming the bard had 4 rolls to try to stabilize according to the rules (from -6) and missed them all. We're talking 24 seconds here. If my DM had an "intrepid maid" save a PC in that situation, I'd roll my eyes and think about leaving the "game."

 

[DM2]

Bah! I think Buttercup was right to not save the bard. I'm presuming the bard had 4 rolls to try to stabilize according to the rules (from -6) and missed them all. We're talking 24 seconds here. If my DM had an "intrepid maid" save a PC in that situation, I'd roll my eyes and think about leaving the "game."

Agreed, I mean come on...how much fudging do the PCs really want?

I roll in the open, and players take their licks with suspense and anxiousness

DM2

 

[Rel]

If my DM had an "intrepid maid" save a PC in that situation, I'd roll my eyes and think about leaving the "game."

That seems a bit of a severe reaction.

I don't bend over backwards to save the characters from death. I wouldn't have an "intrepid maid" suddenly appear to save them from the orcs in the snowy mountain pass. But if I've already established that there is a maid or two in the inn, and if doing so puts them in no great personal danger, I might have one of them step up and try to staunch the bleeding of the downed Bard.

I'd like to think that it isn't too common to stand idly by while someone bleeds to death just a few feet away from you.

 

[Darklone]

Hmm.. In my old group, they pleaded me to roll hidden and I had a rule: Cheat once per evening per PC.

Now with the newbies, I got softer... the encounters aren't that dangerous anymore (because the players aren't powergaming munchkins ).

Hence: No cheating, but dead players. Now and then. Not often.

But this once per session DM blessing is still true. So in that case I might have let the bard get away.