Sudden Metamagic Feats Rock!

[Darkness]

About half the suddens require 1 other MM feat as a prereq. Of course, you can take Sudden Extend (which has no prereq) first and then Sudden Empower (which has this prereq) next.

The drawback of the Suddens is that you can only use them 1/day. If you want to do this more often, get an MM rod instead. The rods are 3/day and those that only affect lvl 1-3 spells are cheap (Empower Rod: 9k).

 

[JoeGKushner]

An Empowered, Maximized fireball (CL 7) does, what, 42 + 7d6/2. Or an average of 54.25 points, with a save for half. (Save DC 13 + IntMod.) On an area.
That's a pretty nasty attack for a 6th-level character but he can of course only do it 1/day.

Nice.

Before too many people call for a nerf though... Despite such a strong attack, taking out creatures whose CR is (party level +4) is very situation-dependent.
Exhibit A: Another CR 10 creature, the bebilith - Reflex save +9, hp 150.

We may have screwed that up then. My caster level is 7th. One of those feats or abilities, I'm thinking the one from UA for my invoker, lets me ignore the level restriction so it can do 11 dice so we maximized the 11 dice. Should we have maximied the 7 dice for caster level and rolled the 4 dice for the empowerment?

And yes, sudden feats can only be used once a day. The nice thing is I've got the Mind over Body regional feat from Calishan and that gives me +1 hit point every time I take a metamgagic feat.

 

[Darkness]

We may have screwed that up then. My caster level is 7th. One of those feats or abilities, I'm thinking the one from UA for my invoker, lets me ignore the level restriction so it can do 11 dice so we maximized the 11 dice. Should we have maximied the 7 dice for caster level and rolled the 4 dice for the empowerment?

Yes. PHB, p.98: "An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result. An empowered, maximized fireball cast by a 15th-level wizard deals points of damage equal to 60 plus one-half of 10d6."

It's easy to miss 'cause the basic description of Maximize Spell ends at the end of the preceding page...

The nice thing is I've got the Mind over Body regional feat from Calishan and that gives me +1 hit point every time I take a metamgagic feat.

Nice synergy.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Yes. PHB, p.98: "An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result. An empowered, maximized fireball cast by a 15th-level wizard deals points of damage equal to 60 plus one-half of 10d6."

It's easy to miss 'cause the basic description of Maximize Spell ends at the end of the preceding page...
Nice synergy.

Well, chauk one up for the gods of not easily organized material... Heck, the wording on that is a little off too. Why not plus 5d6 (one-half of 10d6, the maximum amount of damage allowed by the fireball.) or something... I guess it wo rks thought as I'm sure that there are times when it might not always be clear cut like on an odd level progression.

 

[swrushing]

[/QUOTE]

Nature of the beast no?

arguably, especially if the other characters could do this with the same level o expectation... ie... could your 6th level fighter expect to have a 40/60 chance (guessing at your save dc vs mage's reflex save odds) of a one round kill vs an opposing 10th level fighter?

At any time, if he had hit me with a 10th level fireball and rolled average damage and I missed my save, I'd probably be dead too.

Well, a failed save when four levels down being one shot kill is not surprising, or at least not anywhere near AS surprising as the reverse, right?

If he made his save, even using a limited feat and magic item, he would've lived.

right.

That's a problem of the game system though as with certain spells and damage factors, it's often a save or die thing, even if the spell itself isn't save or die. One reason I'm glad Magisters in AU/AE have d6 hit dice.

It certainly can be. I don't know if i would see it as "often" or maybe i see too many mages under point buy with 14 cons.

There are some who would look upon a CR 10 creature against a party of 6th level characters as a sign of a problem too. Thankfully, we didn't.

Probably, but the norm is for there to be some encounters at +4 cr or so in any adventure (DMG) so it should not be that shocking. indeed, such an encoutner is often a climax.

I guess that's one reason I like feats like this. Even as a GM, I often allow material that could potentially unbalance standard D&D because it allows me to pull out more stops but does provide the "truimpth or die" issue noted above. In my game, (on haitus), one of the characters has an item familiar (from Unearthed Arcana) that's a +2 Keen Greatsword that he uses power attack on all the time and with his spring attack, is a terrifying monster in melee doing 20-50 points easily in one whack and getting out of range.

cool, and does he often one shot Ko fighters 4 levels higher?

I figure as long as we're having fun, it's okay.

Absolutely!

 

[Cerubus Dark]

The thing I like about Sudden Metamagic Feats from the Complete Arcane is that they allow you to 'push' your magic.

I was playing a Fighter 1/Mage (E) 5 with no familiar but the variant UA ability where my E spells are one level higher and am a Calishite with the Elemental Blood background for my fire spells are one level higher so when I cast a fireball, it's cast as a 7th level caster.

We were fighting a 10th level wizard who had fly and other buff spells going. Most of the group getting wailed on because they're standing too close.

I pull out the Rod of Metamagic Empower and use my own feat, Sudden Maximize and after one failed saving throw, we have a nice and toasted enemy wizard whose unconscious body took another 3d6 from the fall and killed him.

I felt like telling the GM I'm hitting him with the Kama-ma wave but I don't know if anyone would've got the DBZ reference.

I didn't think you could use a sudden metamagic feat with a spell cast from an item, will have to look into that some more, I don't think it was a valid use of your feat myself though. Kind of like giving the enemies toothpicks while you have nukes.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I didn't think you could use a sudden metamagic feat with a spell cast from an item, will have to look into that some more, I don't think it was a valid use of your feat myself though. Kind of like giving the enemies toothpicks while you have nukes.

He had quite a few magic items himself.

I think that if he didn't spend so much of his time buffing himself in combat, he would've slaughtered us.

he spent one round on a magic missile, creating a wall of force, another on casting fly, another on protection from missiles, a cone of cold, and a few other spells that I don't know off the top of my head.

 

[Darkness]

I didn't think you could use a sudden metamagic feat with a spell cast from an item

He didn't. He cast the fireball himself and Empowered it with his metamagic rod and Maximized it with his feat.

 

[JoeGKushner]

arguably, especially if the other characters could do this with the same level o expectation... ie... could your 6th level fighter expect to have a 40/60 chance (guessing at your save dc vs mage's reflex save odds) of a one round kill vs an opposing 10th level fighter?

Well, a failed save when four levels down being one shot kill is not surprising, or at least not anywhere near AS surprising as the reverse, right?

right.

It certainly can be. I don't know if i would see it as "often" or maybe i see too many mages under point buy with 14 cons.

Probably, but the norm is for there to be some encounters at +4 cr or so in any adventure (DMG) so it should not be that shocking. indeed, such an encoutner is often a climax.

cool, and does he often one shot Ko fighters 4 levels higher?


Absolutely!

Well, it looks like we agree to disagree. For example, if a 15th and 20th level mage go at it and the lower level one casts a death spell at the higher level one, with standard rules, and the higher levle one misses his save, is that an issue? Mages are great for certain things but survivability in spellfighting isnt' one of them.

Having a feat that gives you a one shot ability per day isn't something the fighter has, but yeah, he's killed things with over 100 hit points in one attack with a good roll and high power attack investment. Nothing like seeing the guy do his (2d6+8 for strength +2 for the sword +18 for power attack) *3 (another feature of the item...).

You game differently than I do and I'm cool with that. You see a massive flaw in having an ability that can only be used once a day that costs a feat, one you only get a handful of, as being unbalancing. I'm sure in your campaign that it won't be an issue.

 

[Darkness]

cool, and does he often one shot Ko fighters 4 levels higher?

If a constant effect (Fighter using magic sword and PA) has as much damage output as a 1/day effect, I'd say there's a nice power difference between the two abilities.

If they are comparable in power, the constant effect must be weaker than the limited one.