Sudden Metamagic Feats Rock!

[kigmatzomat]

I don't think this was the fault of the rules. The party appears to have used up a significant amount of resources on a +4 CR encounter (hp, expendable items, spells, per-day powers, etc). Plus a +4 CR is not an unwinnable "run away" encounter. Had BBEG fired up a Prismatic Wall or other high level defensive spell then the party would have had reason to consider flight.

Magic missles, Dispels, buffs, and a few other mid-level spells are not justification to flee. If you wanted to intimidate the party, intimidate them! Fire off a couple of Summon V or two and have some muscle on-hand to control the PCs, add in a high-visibility defensive spell, and maybe a big chest of gold & treasure or other McGuffin that explains why he's not taking the time to destroy the party outright instead of teleporting away. (he has teleport, right?)

 

[Cerubus Dark]

is the bit I was thinking of. See, I may be unaware of it, but I don't know of too many fighter feats that are only useable one time a day.

Help me out with that and expalin your reasons there, I think I don't understand how you're comparing a class with d4 hit dice and the ability to often do more damage dice in d6s than they have hit points with a fighter getting a one hit kill when they use a much higher hit die and can't automatically hit their enemies with their attacks.

Maximize Spell
Metamagic- Bless this SRD entry

You can maximize the effect of a spell.

Benefits: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.


I don't know but what level is your mage? I don't think a weak little level 10 NPC should been a such a problmatic encounter for you if you can cast a 3rd level spell as a 6th level one. To me the "sudden" use of this feat as you mentioned is really strange I always make my players take it instead of a normal spell slot of the correct level, I can see using the wand or rod with the feat in it but to just "suddenly" out of the blue cast a maximized fireball would worry me as a DM.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Uh, Dark, I think you missed the part where this is a feat introduced in the Miniatures Handbook and reprinted in the Complete Arcane that allows you to spontaneously cast the spell 1/day without changing it's level.

 

[Cerubus Dark]

Uh, Dark, I think you missed the part where this is a feat introduced in the Miniatures Handbook and reprinted in the Complete Arcane that allows you to spontaneously cast the spell 1/day without changing it's level.

That is not in the SRD, see that kind of feat should be taken at maybe epic levels, a low level character with a feat like could unbalance a game quickly. Even if it is usable only 1/day.

 

[JoeGKushner]

That is not in the SRD, see that kind of feat should be taken at maybe epic levels, a low level character with a feat like could unbalance a game quickly. Even if it is usable only 1/day.

Well, it may surprise you... but some people play with material that isn't in the SRD, even when it's 'official' WoTC material that is closed content.

And is the feat unbalanced? To some sure but to others, getting a constant bonus or the ability to constantly use it, often means that this feat is going to see limited, but spectacular use.

As it did yesterday.

Ah, the joys of internet conversation...

 

[Cerubus Dark]

Well, it may surprise you... but some people play with material that isn't in the SRD, even when it's 'official' WoTC material that is closed content.

And is the feat unbalanced? To some sure but to others, getting a constant bonus or the ability to constantly use it, often means that this feat is going to see limited, but spectacular use.

As it did yesterday.

Ah, the joys of internet conversation...

*ugh* You don't have to be a smart ass about your answer Joe. This is why I nearly gave up playing. I get so sick and tired of all of these useless feats coming out in every book WoTC puts out. What ever, I am done with this thread.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

That is not in the SRD

Neither are illithids, but it doesn't stop me from slaying them.

 

[JoeGKushner]

*ugh* You don't have to be a smart ass about your answer Joe. This is why I nearly gave up playing. I get so sick and tired of all of these useless feats coming out in every book WoTC puts out. What ever, I am done with this thread.

Sorry. You tell me something's not in the SRD and that it's not balanced. I tell you that people use stuff that's not in the SRD all the time and that indeed, it may not be balanced for some. The problem being?

My point? The SRD is certainly not the last word in d20 mechanics and that even the SRD is not balanced with itself as Magic Missile, is STILL too good (among other issues.)

 

[apsuman]

not to nitpick here, but...

the maximized empowered fireball would do
7d6 (maxed) +.50 * (7d6) damage or
42 + an average of 12.25 for an average total of 54.25

Still way more than necessary to kill a level 10 wizard with a failed save.

But the save is what? 10 +spell level + caster's attribute bonus? So, if your caster had an 18 int, then the save would be 10 + 3 + 4 = 17?

Also, why did his unconscience body fall to the ground, I did not think that would have happened.

Seems to me if there was a problem (note, I said if) it was either 1) the stacking of the UA varient ability with the Calishite ability or 2) the DM played this NPC poorly.


imho

 

[swrushing]

[/QUOTE]

is the bit I was thinking of. See, I may be unaware of it, but I don't know of too many fighter feats that are only useable one time a day.

Not sure and books not hand, but i seem to remember something, maybe called power critical, which allowed a fighter to make one attack an auto-threat once a day.

The difference of course between these two "once a day do a lot more damage" notions is, IIRC, the power critical had a steep level limit, like somewhere around level 9 or 12 before you could use it.

Might be wrong about that.

Help me out with that and expalin your reasons there, I think I don't understand how you're comparing a class with d4 hit dice and the ability to often do more damage dice in d6s than they have hit points with a fighter getting a one hit kill when they use a much higher hit die and can't automatically hit their enemies with their attacks.

First, and foremost, are you confused as to which one of us first brought up the fighter's damage capability as an example to put this mages thing in context. Hint, it wasn't me? if its not legitimate for me to ask about the fighter's performance in the same campaign, then why did you start that ball rolling on fighter and mage with (way back on page 1 before i mentioned fighters at all) ...

In my game, (on haitus), one of the characters has an item familiar (from Unearthed Arcana) that's a +2 Keen Greatsword that he uses power attack on all the time and with his spring attack, is a terrifying monster in melee doing 20-50 points easily in one whack and getting out of range.

Second, i would never compare the two partial class descriptions you list, i would consider comparing wizards and fighters (the whoile class vs the whole class) but we would need a whole lot more context. I would also consider comparing the two characters, again in toto and in context.

What i have tried to be comparing and getting an idea on is the comparison between 10th level and sizth level characters in your games. It seems the gap between them is not so far as it has tended to be in other games i have seen. Normally, i do expect such an encoutner to be a dramatic fight to the finish and the possibility of PC death is definitely there, barring of course favorable circumstances or surprise.

For a 6th level guy to even 40% odds of a one shot kill against a 10th level character without surprise or circumstance is well outside the range of my expectations.

Now, again we have the "everyone's game is different" but to just throw in why i think this sort of "power up for the climax" thing isn't for me... it works one way. As GM, its not going to be something i use.

IE: i would not be running a scenario like this...

"Ok, the enemy wizard begins casting and uses {insert all the little thinimabobs you did but make it 10th level instead of 6th being maximized and empowered on the fly with extra this and that for UA feats and races or whatever} and blammo... " which probably results in wiping a good number of the PCs right away.

if i run the "one powerful mage vs group of PCs" and apply the same "one massive strike" feats, the result is new characters for lots if not all, as "for this one moment a day" its not really a 10th level mage but a 15th level mage, or rather someone with that firepower.

In DND with its classes, defense goes up with level in many ways but so does offense. So if my design scheme turns from "some of cr4-8 encounters with a cr10 finish" to "some of cr4-8 encounters with a cr15 finish" in order to give my bad guy enough defenses to avoid being one-shotted by your "climax feat pumped" mage, then I will likely see a lot more casualties.

I don't prefer that design scheme. other will of course.

thats all cool.

for me, i prefer not having to ramp things up to challenge the "one uber shot" sort of guy when it come down to the climax, as the other characters who are not "once a day uberred" risk being bystanders in the corssfire, and not stars in that most dramatic scene.

It sounds like, and correct me if i am wrong, your fellow compatriots did nothing more than draw fire while you wiped the bad guy with your "once a day kill shot".

I get you enhoyed it a lot. Do you think they did as much?