Sudden Metamagic Feats Rock!

[MoogleEmpMog]

The Sudden feats are awfully weak. Broken? :nonexistent rolleyes smiley: Any 1/day effect is next to useless unless the DM actively coddles the party by giving them only one or two encounters per day. A 1/day effect that essentially serves to make the absolutely abysmal (in 3.x) direct damage spells somewhat handy in a serious fight? This didn't make the core rules presumably because it's so weak and specialized that only a truly dedicated and desperate blaster mage (a sad, sorry lot in D&D these days) would ever take it.

As for killing a CR 10 enemy? Recall that this CR 10 enemy has an average of 25 hp before his Con bonus, assuming he has one. An ECL 6 ranger can unload a Rapid Shot with a +1 Mighty +2 Composite Longbow and do up to 33 damage before crits. An ECL 6 barbarian with an 18 Str and a +2 greatsword can do up to 46 damage before crits and power attack - enough to kill our CR 10 mage even if he has a +2 Con bonus and average hp.

Recall that minor globe of invulnerability negates this attack entirely. A wizard who spends his time buffing but doesn't throw this on the pile is asking to die, simple as that. Not from a lucky and expensive direct damage spell, but from slow, hold person, charm person, stinking cloud or touch of idiocy. Or one of hundreds of other status spells.

Now, you can (easily) make the case that any tactically sound party can bring down a CR+4 single opponent without breaking a sweat. In this case, a tactically sound player brought down a CR+4 single opponent by expending basically a single, 1/day high-powered and expensive shot.

CR 10 wizzy could have been completely immune to all of the PC's spells (globe), he could have drawn out this attack using an illusionary duplicate (which ALL BBEG wizards should employ if they want to taunt the PCs like an imbecilic Bond villain), he could have had fire resistance if he knew the specific predelictions of the PCs, he could have targeted the PC of his own class (an arrogant wizard should have considered sorcery a graver threat than steel), he could have summoned a monster to take hits for him... CR 10 wizards are just OK BBEGs due to their paltry hp, but they're awash with options. They certainly don't need to be CR 15 to survive, and, in fact, with 38 average hp, they'll STILL die if they behave like morons.

 

[MerricB]

In a game I played in, my friend was a Favoured Soul with two Sudden Metamagic feats: Sudden Still and Sudden Silent.

They were fantastic. He'd use a cause fear spell without anyone realising he'd cast it - and this was in an area where magic was outlawed, making them even better. (I note that this was a urban-based game).

The BBEG that Joe took out with a Maximised Fireball just displays a unfortunate characteristic of BBEG that are wizards: DMs just don't know how to use them.

Wizards are intelligent, right? And they've advanced enough in the Evil Guy hierarchy to become the Big Bad, right? So, they should be able to defend themselves? Right?

Here's a tip to all the DMs out there: Big Bads pay attention to what heroes might come along and attack them. They learn their tactics and favoured spells. This group likes using fireball? Oh, I guess it is globe of minor invulnerability and resist fire spells for me!

Big Bad Bruisers generally have enough hit points to just ignore anything the party throw at them for several rounds. This is not the case for Big Bad Wizards. They have to prepare. And prepare means research on the enemy. The PCs should be doing this themselves, as well!

Cheers!

 

[Thanee]

the maximized empowered fireball would do
7d6 (maxed) +.50 * (7d6) damage or
42 + an average of 12.25 for an average total of 54.25

Still way more than necessary to kill a level 10 wizard with a failed save.

Even on a failed save, I'd expect a 10th level wizard to live through that kind of damage.

Thanks to False Life!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

In a game I played in, my friend was a Favoured Soul with two Sudden Metamagic feats: Sudden Still and Sudden Silent.

They were fantastic. He'd use a cause fear spell without anyone realising he'd cast it - and this was in an area where magic was outlawed, making them even better. (I note that this was a urban-based game).

That's some pretty specific circumstances, tho. In an average campaign, I'd dare to say, that these feats are not so great.

Even in such a campaign, I'd rate the regular Still and Silent Spell feats higher for a spontaneous caster.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Kilroy]

Metamagic that lets you boost a spells effective level far beyond what a PC could normally use can do really horrid things. Observe the Incantatrix, lord of the Alpha Strike. When Chained Empowered Sonic Chain Lightning goes off, there's trouble, and that's without even using any Metamagic rods or Sudden Feats. See figure 1 - http://www.upl.cs.wisc.edu/~kilroy/adnd/triquintachordation2.jpg

With Sudden Maximize it's just a flat 607 points of damage to each of 16 targets, if your DM doesn't know how to stack metamagic and insists on doing it wrong. (Who am I to complain...) Not bad for a 7th level spell.

I made a guest DM in a silly 16th level game cry when my sorc/Incantatrix and another wizard teamed up with Chain Polymorph Any Object (Grizzly Mastodons) and a held Twin Animal Growth. We started raining 20' elephants on the battle mat and nearly covered it. Nearly three million pounds of instant trampling mastodon, thanks to the miracles of abused metamagic. Even in this game, Sudden metamagic was banned as too broken, or we could have had twice that and then some, with only one caster.

I'd never do that in a serious game, but plan Fluffy Armageddon was pretty much the best thing ever. 96d8+480 trample, and the DM even let us get away with it after he stopped crying.

 

[Trainz]

JGK's gaming experience is just circumstancial evidence that the feat might be broken. It's only usable once per day. The target BBEG had to:

-not have proper defenses up;
-not have minions to back him up;
-miss his save.

There are dozens of ways PC's, using favorable circumstances, manage to defeat overwhelming odds. And that, in fact, is a possibility built in the game itself. To be heroic. To achieve beyond. Without such possibilities, the game looses it's heroic aspect. And it ceases to be D&D as we know it.

The game assumes that not all encounters will be exactly your EL. Some encounters will be up to 4 EL below your party's EL. Others will be up to 4 (or more) EL *above* your party's EL. And in fact, you're assumed to survive even those. This variety in encounters brings verissimilitude and challenge to the game.

Of course, an encounter 4 EL above your party isn't usually solved with the casting of a single spell, but that is not a common occurence. Most of the time it involves spending more ressources (spells and HP's) and combat rounds to the challenge, but sometimes, in ALL campaigns it does happen that a lucky hit/spell will solve the encounter in the first round.

And the fact that these things do happen is what makes players and DMs alike go "WOW !!!" from time to time, and that makes the game more fun.

 

[MerricB]

That's some pretty specific circumstances, tho. In an average campaign, I'd dare to say, that these feats are not so great.

Certainly... if there is such a thing as an average campaign.

Campaigns vary so much that a feat that might be weak in one game is excellent in another.

Cheers!

 

[Izerath]

Not faulty, just my style....

As I have been discussing in a thread over on RPGnet, it's the NATURE of RPGs that you can't expect to explicitly plan every event.

I agree, but you assume I plan things out exactly. I certainly expect that something could go oddly, such that the BBEG bites it. If the PCs pull that off, kudos to the players. I do make a grand campaign "event" plan, but then I adjust it constantly based on what the players do or do not accomplish. It makes for a very interactive and multi-faceted world where inaction has consequences just as well as action.

So long as you still continue to manage your game as if it were a story, it seems to me that you are going to run into trouble.

I haven't had problems. I just keep a rein on things and stress role-play over roll-play. I even award experience in a way to reinforce that fact. Guess it's a matter of style here. I'll admit though, it is a bit more work to manage a campaign this way, though I enjoy it.

To me, this vantage point strikes me as very similar to people complaining about instant death traps, and I find it pointless for the same reason. If someone dies due to an instant death trap, you are faced with the fact that if you didn't want it to happen, you should have not created the possibility for it by putting it in your adventure.

No complaints from me. I try to use instant death things infrequently. I like the rules to be somewhat predictable so I can make every encounter challenging and like a boxing match or chess game, and not just against the BBEGs.....again, just a style preference. Body counts aren't important, it's the quality epic fights that define my campaigns.

Same goes in your situation. They players don't understand that they aren't meant to fight the BBEG. They just understand where he is and are operating by the rules to take him down. You created the possibility, you should be willing to deal with the consequences of it.

I am always prepared for that possibility. Never said otherwise. Ironically, my players do know when to run, though I have to admit, there are moments where they try to push their luck. When they do, I just demonstrate the NPCs mojo and they get the picture quickly - usually.

Edit: Of course, capping PC damage is one way to deal with controlling expected outcomes, but if you are running brushes that are intended to be that close that one feat makes the difference, I sort of think you were courting dissapointment in the first place.

I like the unexpected happening - it makes the game fun, I just find that less "frequency" of the fantastic makes those events that much more memorable and rewarding. I find that many supplimental feats ruin that fantastic moment by making them worth less, since they happen more frequently.

It seems that both you and Darkness read a little to much into my post - probably just to help. I do appreciate the effort, but I'm cool with my DMing style and my players certainly don't complain.

Just classify my style as grim and gritty with some comicbook flair. I do make sure I set the expectations before anyone joins the game, so they know "If you're outmatched, you'd better run, because if you give me the opportunity, I'll whoop ya." Heck - I don't even have to say that anymore, the vets know when they are outmatched and they tell the newbies, "Run, or he'll kill you."

Bottom line - I limit variablility by sticking to the core rules more than using many of the supplimental rules, and I tend to be very cautious when I do change the rules, so as not to disrupt the predictability of events too much. 6-level swings in power, even for one-shots, just doesn't suit my tastes I guess.

 

[Izerath]

Its about predictability.....not limitation

And if Joe spends his power and can't rest before the final showdown, he can't hurt your plans.

I try to keep things predictable (for me, not the players), but hey, things happen.

D&D is not a movie, novel or similar thing.

I strongly disagree here. You can use d20 for storytelling, not jsut tactical scenarios, though admittedly, its not easy. My example was more anecdotal, and well, far from complete of juicy details and precise action.....I certainly don't play my BBEGs like moronic fools. There is usually good plot reason a BBEG reveals himself and he is certainly prepared.

I don't want to be mean, but I must say that neglecting defenses and hoping players don't act tactically effectively is not a good plan for a BBEG who wants to put himself into harm's way to tease them.

I certainly wouldn't make Yogi Bear a criminal mastermind!

Anyway for more details on the whys, see my reply to Psion.

Ciao.

 

[Darkness]

I strongly disagree here.

Why? Do you like to script your games in great detail and leave PCs little room to maneuver?