Sudden Metamagic Feats Rock!

[Thanee]

Certainly... if there is such a thing as an average campaign.

Campaigns vary so much that a feat that might be weak in one game is excellent in another.

Absolutely! I just think, that these feats will probably be rather weak (weaker than many, many other possible choices) in a great majority of the campaigns being played out there.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Plane Sailing]

I wouldn't allow those sudden feats on the grounds that they are a huge tactical boost for wizards and clerics, and nothing comparable is done for bards and sorcerers. Perhaps if spontaneous casters were allowed to freely apply metamagics as part of standard-action spell casting (and could use quicken) then it would be reasonable - I think maintaining the differential in metamagic usefulness between prepared/spontaneous casters is vital.

Cheers

 

[Sammael]

I wouldn't allow those sudden feats on the grounds that they are a huge tactical boost for wizards and clerics, and nothing comparable is done for bards and sorcerers. Perhaps if spontaneous casters were allowed to freely apply metamagics as part of standard-action spell casting (and could use quicken) then it would be reasonable - I think maintaining the differential in metamagic usefulness between prepared/spontaneous casters is vital.

Hence the following sorcerer talent. IMC, Sorcerers gain talents at the same rate as wizards gain bonus feats:

Sudden Metamagic: You may apply any one metamagic feat you know to a spell as a free action once per day per five class levels. Prerequisite: any one Metamagic feat.

Also, here's a small modification of Quicken Spell:

QUICKEN SPELL
Prerequisite: Silent Spell or Still Spell.
Special: A sorcerer or bard can cast quickened spells as a move action, instead of as a full-round action.

 

[nimisgod]

Nice one, Joe! I imagine the whole table was cheering when you pwned that mage

I remember my moment as a blaster.

We had just encountered a whole bunch of monsters, about 12 of them. I thought the party was really in for it so my 14th level Strongheart halfling sorceror cast an empowered sonic firebrand that hit all of them. I expected to weaken them a little so that our melee'ers could take them out easier (as is the usual plan).

My spell didn't weaken then. It wiped them out completely. Turns out that we were fighting Ineffable Horrors or something like that. Never even got a chance for a physical description before I blasted them. Good times... good times. Rest well, Mazan Roe.

As a GM, I like it when my players are rules-savy and their PCs "power-gamed"*. It makes it more fun for me and more fun for them. And if they kill a BBEG before his time? That's points for them! Do they enjoy it? Hell yeah! I just adjust the plot accordingly.

That said, arcanist BBEGs are just really hard to handle, especially at high levels. They have so few HPs that there's no gradual progression of victory (by damage). A smart mage buffs ahead of time. The results tend to be binary: either he's pwned by the PCs in the first few rounds or he beats the crap out of them with his spells and they can't pierce his defenses (mirror image, displacement, globe of invuln., etc)

* or min/maxxed or twinked or whatever the hell it's called nowadays. i don't really give a .

 

[Lord Pendragon]

As a DM, I don't care if my BBEG is killed. I always have two or three more up my sleeve for just such an occasion. And as my DM is teaching me in the campaign I'm currently part of as a player, the bad guys know about Raise Dead too.

But a feat that basically grants a spellcaster a +3 level spell once a day does start warning bells going off in my head. Spells are already balanced based on their limited number. It seems that adding even more limitation for even more power creates a single attack of such power that it makes it difficult to judge the pacing of the game anymore. Would I allow a 6th-level wizard to spend a feat to cast Disintegrate 1/day? I would not. And that's what a Maximized Fireball is: a 6th-level spell.

And while I don't mind my BBEG dying, I do like to be able to fairly judge how long an encounter is going to take to overcome, etc. It helps me plan the game, so...

The Sudden feats weren't out when last I DM'd. My gut feeling is to allow Sudden Silent, Still, and Extend as is. These metamagic feats don't see enough use as it is, IMO. Sudden Empower and Maximize, however, wouldn't be available as feats. They might show up as one-shot items, though. Like a talisman that can be used as a spell component for one spell, and is burned up in the casting.

 

[Thanee]

That's a general problem with all the "free" metamagic, however. Metamagic rods being the worst of the bunch.

And they did errata the Incantatrix Instant Metamagic ability... the only one with reasonable prerequisites/limitations apart from most of the Sudden Metamagic feats (Sudden Maximize is a bit low with prerequisites, should at least have Maximize Spell instead of any metamagic feat)... but left out all the others (i.e. metamagic rods, Divine Metamagic, Metamagic Effect). Rather strange choice, really.

Bye
Thanee

 

[JoeGKushner]

I get you enhoyed it a lot. Do you think they did as much?

Because the guy was flying, invisible, and had protection from normal missiles on him, yes, yes they did. Trust me, with them not being able to effect the guy at all, they were happy for any resolution.

The GM was nice enough to say, "Yeah, you see the begining of the pea that you know will become a fireball." When the enemy mage cast it and I happened to catch him in my radius with the blast.

 

[swrushing]

Trust me, with them not being able to effect the guy at all, they were happy for any resolution.

Now thats a ringing endorsement of a scenario, if ever i heard one!

Enjoy your games.

happy new year.

 

[swrushing]

But a feat that basically grants a spellcaster a +3 level spell once a day does start warning bells going off in my head. Spells are already balanced based on their limited number. It seems that adding even more limitation for even more power creates a single attack of such power that it makes it difficult to judge the pacing of the game anymore. Would I allow a 6th-level wizard to spend a feat to cast Disintegrate 1/day? I would not. And that's what a Maximized Fireball is: a 6th-level spell.

i would tend to agree with this concern. Basically, out of 13, lets say 15 encounters during an adventure, the mage will be able to (depends on pace) throw spells six character levels higher than his norm in say two-three of them (depending on pacing and rest opportunities and his ability to recognize tougher encounters before they are over) and in the other encounters he performs at his normal, the party's typical, level except for being "a feat down" so to speak.

Not something i would want to have happen for one to two classes only in my campaigns. Something i would expect to see frequently turn into the "you guys just sit still for a minute while i take care of this one for you" kind of thing, which again is not usually something i try to encourage in my games or their design.

 

[JoeGKushner]

We thought we were going to have it all wrapped up.

We hid in a hilly region, taking twenty on our hide checks.

Our ranger-fighter looks up, sees the Wizard's familiar, a hawk. Pretty much our cover's blown at this point as well as plans from the fighter-ranger and the fighter-thief who were attempting to in essence, assassinate the guy. The fighter-barbarian and pure breed fighter are on the open road and start running down it getting hit by magic missiles and other fun stuff.

The first few rounds were more of an annoyance for the others as they're generally not good with ranged weapons and the mage of course, is. Once he took off flying and invisible... well, things weren't looking good for them, especially since they all grouped up in one area.

I kept making half-moves and buffing myself. The last three rounds of the fight, I kept holding my action and seeing if the GM would provide me with a general clue as to the mage's whereabouts. I mentioned the pea of fire that the fireball spell starts off as and he said, "Yeah, you see that..." so while he fireballed my group, I returned the favor.