Summon Monster

[jester47]

Ok, this is not really a rules clarification, but more of a complaint. Looking at summon monster I found that the lower level monsters were really not all that fun.

Why can't a first level caster not summon an orc or a goblin, or maybe some 1st level human warriors? Why can't he or she summon what she wants and just have a hitdice and creature type restriction.

It seems to me that if you are pulling somthing off an onother plane for 6 sec to 2 min. it should be no prob to grab somthing from the prime for that long.

Looking at the options in the PHB-

Summon monster I

dog
owl
giant fire beatle
porpoise
badger
monkey
dire rat
raven
Monsterous centipede Medium
Monsterous scorpion small
hawk
Monsterous spider
octopus
snake, small viper

All of these are 1 hd creatures. So why not just say, that the character can summon a creature of one hit die? And why do the creatures have to correspond to the characters alignment?

Aaron.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

IIRC, Summon Monster N summons a monster whose CR is N, and not a monster that has N HD. You could very well make your own list of CR1 monsters for Summon Monster I, but they simply could not put the exhaustive list of all applicable monsters for each spell in the PHB. It would have been ridiculous.

Also, the alignment portion of the summoned monster only matters to a cleric. A cleric cannot use a spell who alignment is opposite to his or her own, but a Lawful Good cleric can summon anything that's neither Evil nor Chaotic (since summoning an Evil monster makes the spell evil, ie gain the [Evil] descriptor). A wizard or sorcerer isn't limited by this and may freely summon a Celestial Unicorn the first time, a Thoqqa the next and a Quasit the third time around.

Hope this helps / clears things a bit.

AR

 

[Severion]

I believe i read on these boards that they were trying to limit the utility of the lower level SM spells and didn't include any sapient creatures until SM 3 or so.

 

[jester47]

Well, the spell gives certain assumptions.

1) That you are pulling somthing off the planes
2) That whatever you pull off the planes is compelled to do your bidding
3) The spell is very short lived, so creature goes home right away

So it seems to me that there should be no restriction on what you can summon.

The CRs and HD do not fit the levels. At 9th level, there are CR 12 creatures and a Roc has like 18 HD. So I don't think its based on CR or HD.

After looking at the demons, I think it is based on level adjustment.

I found the Dragon Mag with the alternate summon spells. #302. It has some pretty good ideas but I do not like the basis on the tables and I think the CRs are a little messed up.

Also, I think that summoning Archons, Celestials, Demons and Devils should be thier own thing.

I think tying it to the planes is messed up.

Perhaps summon spells should be individual. Like you have Summon Monster I: Orc. Summon Monster IX: Orc Army. (a little humor there). But that might be too much of a limitation. As wizards only get what they research, and what they find. Then again maybe not. Allowing magical research in a campaign would allow a character to research summoning spells.

I am going to have to think about this lots. It ties right into the advancement rules.

Aaron.

 

[Li Shenron]

IIRC, Summon Monster N summons a monster whose CR is N, and not a monster that has N HD. You could very well make your own list of CR1 monsters for Summon Monster I, but they simply could not put the exhaustive list of all applicable monsters for each spell in the PHB. It would have been ridiculous.

Take a look at the lists again, they are not based on CR neither HD. I think that if you want to add a new monster to a SM list it is better to use CR as a guideline rather than HD, but that also HD should be possibly not too far away (of course, then there's already the elder elemental...). Anyway, in the current lists there are already some monsters that could have been in a higher or lower list and it would have been still quite appropriate.

 

[Li Shenron]

Well, the spell gives certain assumptions.

1) That you are pulling somthing off the planes
2) That whatever you pull off the planes is compelled to do your bidding
3) The spell is very short lived, so creature goes home right away

So it seems to me that there should be no restriction on what you can summon.

The CRs and HD do not fit the levels. At 9th level, there are CR 12 creatures and a Roc has like 18 HD. So I don't think its based on CR or HD.

After looking at the demons, I think it is based on level adjustment.

I found the Dragon Mag with the alternate summon spells. #302. It has some pretty good ideas but I do not like the basis on the tables and I think the CRs are a little messed up.

Also, I think that summoning Archons, Celestials, Demons and Devils should be thier own thing.

I think tying it to the planes is messed up.

Perhaps summon spells should be individual. Like you have Summon Monster I: Orc. Summon Monster IX: Orc Army. (a little humor there). But that might be too much of a limitation. As wizards only get what they research, and what they find. Then again maybe not. Allowing magical research in a campaign would allow a character to research summoning spells.

I am going to have to think about this lots. It ties right into the advancement rules.

Aaron.

I think they tied the spells to planes more for flavor than other reasons. Then the MotP itself fills the outer planes with creatures which are not outsiders at all and are in every respect the same as the mortals in the prime (one of the very few faults of the MotP, IMHO). And of course, in your campaign you can have whatever you want on that planes, or you could take any kind of creature and give it an outsider template (or simply grant them the outsider type, or better the extraplanar subtype) to make them summonable. Notice that even without modifying the spell - except the list, obviously - you are not restricted to outsiders, but rather to extraplanar creatures (which actually become extraplanar when summoned), and I think that if you have alternate material planes, you could let the caster summon any creature from them.

 

[Bauglir]

While we're on the subject, has anyone found the spells to be very weak? They appear that way on the surface at least.

I mean, Summon Monster IX summons mostly CR 9 creatures. Against the EL 18+ encounters one would expect to face when one can cast SMIX a CR 9 creature is surely not very effective?

 

[Li Shenron]

While we're on the subject, has anyone found the spells to be very weak? They appear that way on the surface at least.

I mean, Summon Monster IX summons mostly CR 9 creatures. Against the EL 18+ encounters one would expect to face when one can cast SMIX a CR 9 creature is surely not very effective?

The CR of the summoned creature is definitely low, but if the players are smart to summon the right monster for the job (for example a monster with the perfect special attack or defense for the situation), it can be very useful.

Remember also that a SM spell can used to summon more lesser creatures instead of a "big" one, so it can help to slow down enemies a lot or mess up the combat area. Eventually, with multiple casting you can improve your party quite effectively (until someone casts area dispels...).

It definitely shouldn't give you an extra "full" party member with just one spell (you can do that with Gate, or some Planar Ally, but with costs and restrictions), althought the duration definitely limits it to not more than a single encounter.

 

[Storm Raven]

While we're on the subject, has anyone found the spells to be very weak? They appear that way on the surface at least.

I mean, Summon Monster IX summons mostly CR 9 creatures. Against the EL 18+ encounters one would expect to face when one can cast SMIX a CR 9 creature is surely not very effective?

Think of it this way: the summoned creature is not expected to survive the combat. Throw it into the fray with abandon. Use its most powerful abilities immediately, and in as rapid succession as possible. Hold nothing back. Hold nothing in reserve for later.

 

[Storm Raven]

Also, I think that summoning Archons, Celestials, Demons and Devils should be thier own thing.

I think tying it to the planes is messed up.

Perhaps summon spells should be individual. Like you have Summon Monster I: Orc. Summon Monster IX: Orc Army. (a little humor there). But that might be too much of a limitation. As wizards only get what they research, and what they find. Then again maybe not. Allowing magical research in a campaign would allow a character to research summoning spells.

I am going to have to think about this lots. It ties right into the advancement rules.

Here is what I do.

I allow for all of the templates in MotP to be used for summoned creatures. All four elemental, all four alignment, ice, shadow and wood are options available for summoned creatures. I allow any of the creatures listed on the summon monster tables as "celestial" or "fiendish" to be summoned with any of these templates. I also allow most of the creatures listed in Dragon #302 to be summoned.

But there is a catch.

Clerics are limited in what templated they can summon by their deity. For example, clerics of Thunor, God of Storms, can summon air element, and water element creatures, and no other types of creatures. Clerics can also summon "related" non-templated creatures, for example, a cleric of Thunor could summon air or water elementals with appropriate spells, but not other types of unusual outsiders or elementals.

Sorcerers have their own routine, which would be complicated to explain the basis of, because it is campaign specific, but they basically choose an element (or shadow, ice, or anarchic creatures) at character creation and summon creatures of that type for their career.

If a wizard adds a summon monster spell to his spell book, he chooses two templates, and summons creatures of those types with that spell. If he desires to expand his repertoire, he can research the spell again, learning the formula to summon creatures of another type. It is researched exactly like a new spell, using the same costs and rules. If succesful, he can add the new "spell" to his spellbook, using normal scribing procedures and costs, and then can summon creatures of the new type with the summon monster spell of that level in addition to any other types he already knew. Alternatively, he can find or otherwise acquire scrolls of summon monster detailing how to summon other types of creatures and scribe them into his spell book. Wizards can be very versatile in what they summon, but must invest time, money, and effort into doing so.