Sundering Weapons and Objects with Ranged Attacks

[Malcer]

We had a discussion in our group last night whether it is possible to target a Composite Longbow with the ranged touch attack of an Eldritch Blast in order to sunder it.

In the PHB (p. 158) under to the Special Attack Sunder it says that you can sunder with slashing and bludgeoning melee weapons which is accomplished by an Opposed Attack Roll There is also a reference to carried and worn objects that can be targetted by an attack when one manages to hit the AC 10 + size modifier + dex modiefier of the carrying or wearing characters. While ranged weapons are not explicitley mentioned, it seems that there is nothing to prohibit targeting objects with ranged weapons either. In addition, the PhB (p.165) says under Smashing an Object, that you ranged Weapon damage is half against objects, which is mirrored by the description of the Eldritch Blast.

The Ranged Sunder Feat in Complete Warrior added to the confusion because it says that you cause full damage with slashing and bludgeoning ranged weapons as well as being able to do half damage with a ranged piercing weapon. In addition it says under Normal that "Objects take only half damage from ranged weapons (other than siege engines and the like). You can only sunder with a melee attack using slashing and bludgeoning weapon" (CW p. 104).

Does that mean that whenever an attended object in essence becomes a weapon or a shield, it is impossible to target it with a ranged weapon or weapon-like spell or spell-like ability? For example, one could target the wand that a wizard wields, but it is impossible to target the weapon of a fighter unless one has the Ranged Sunder Feat? (Target in the sense of using ranged weapon or weapon-like spell effect like Eldritch Blast, Scorching Ray and Disintegrate...)

We had a heated discussion about that last night (with me taking the position that it should be possible to make the attempt that I outlined in the example above) and I was accused of interpreting the rules in a way that is broken.

Please help me to sort this out.

Thx, for your help
Malcer

 

[Rackhir]

We had a discussion in our group last night whether it is possible to target a Composite Longbow with the ranged touch attack of an Eldritch Blast in order to sunder it.

In the PHB (p. 158) under to the Special Attack Sunder it says that you can sunder with slashing and bludgeoning melee weapons which is accomplished by an Opposed Attack Roll There is also a reference to carried and worn objects that can be targetted by an attack when one manages to hit the AC 10 + size modifier + dex modiefier of the carrying or wearing characters. While ranged weapons are not explicitley mentioned, it seems that there is nothing to prohibit targeting objects with ranged weapons either. In addition, the PhB (p.165) says under Smashing an Object, that you ranged Weapon damage is half against objects, which is mirrored by the description of the Eldritch Blast.

The Ranged Sunder Feat in Complete Warrior added to the confusion because it says that you cause full damage with slashing and bludgeoning ranged weapons as well as being able to do half damage with a ranged piercing weapon. In addition it says under Normal that "Objects take only half damage from ranged weapons (other than siege engines and the like). You can only sunder with a melee attack using slashing and bludgeoning weapon" (CW p. 104).

Does that mean that whenever an attended object in essence becomes a weapon or a shield, it is impossible to target it with a ranged weapon or weapon-like spell or spell-like ability? For example, one could target the wand that a wizard wields, but it is impossible to target the weapon of a fighter unless one has the Ranged Sunder Feat? (Target in the sense of using ranged weapon or weapon-like spell effect like Eldritch Blast, Scorching Ray and Disintegrate...)

We had a heated discussion about that last night (with me taking the position that it should be possible to make the attempt that I outlined in the example above) and I was accused of interpreting the rules in a way that is broken.

Please help me to sort this out.

Thx, for your help
Malcer

You can attempt to sunder objects without the feat, but as with normal sundering if you don't have the feat then you do less damage on a sunder attempt. IE Half. So a ranged sunder attack without the feat would do 0.5 * 0.5 = 25% damage. With the feat you do full damage, or in the case of missile weapons half, since you are not halving the damage you would do.

In the case of a spell you should be able to do the same thing with a ranged touch attack, since you can target a specific item. In this case the spell description should tell you what kind of damage (if any) it does to objects. Feats would not be applicable, since it is the nature of the spell that does the damage, not how you wield it. Though I suppose you could come up with a ranged sunder feat for spells, but I wouldn't recomend it. Sunder is problematic enough in games.

 

[Deset Gled]

You can attempt to sunder objects without the feat, but as with normal sundering if you don't have the feat then you do less damage on a sunder attempt. IE Half.
...
In the case of a spell you should be able to do the same thing with a ranged touch attack, since you can target a specific item.

No offence, Rackhir, but this is just plain wrong.

The SRD:

SUNDER
You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. If you’re attempting to sunder a weapon or shield, follow the steps outlined here. (Attacking held objects other than weapons or shields is covered below.)
Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target whose weapon or shield you are trying to sunder. (If you have the Improved Sunder feat, you don’t incur an attack of opportunity for making the attempt.)
Step 2: Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a –4 penalty. If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category.
Step 3: Consequences. If you beat the defender, roll damage and deal it to the weapon or shield. See Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points to determine how much damage you must deal to destroy the weapon or shield.
If you fail the sunder attempt, you don’t deal any damage.
Sundering a Carried or Worn Object: You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.

No, you cannot use a ranged attack, or a spell, to Sunder (normally). Melee attacks only.

The Ranged Sunder feat allows a character to make a ranged sunder attack (and only a ranged attack, no spells). This is an exception created by the feat. Furthermore, Ranged Sunder lets you make a ranged sunder attempt with a piercing weapon. If you use a piercing ranged weapon, you do half damage than normal because piercing weapons are less effective against objects.

Does that clear everything up?

 

[Saeviomagy]

The Ranged Sunder feat allows a character to make a ranged sunder attack (and only a ranged attack, no spells).

If a spell makes a ranged attack roll, surely it qualifies as an attack??

 

[Malcer]

No, you cannot use a ranged attack, or a spell, to Sunder (normally). Melee attacks only.

The Ranged Sunder feat allows a character to make a ranged sunder attack (and only a ranged attack, no spells). This is an exception created by the feat. Furthermore, Ranged Sunder lets you make a ranged sunder attempt with a piercing weapon. If you use a piercing ranged weapon, you do half damage than normal because piercing weapons are less effective against objects.

Does that clear everything up?

I outlined the reference in my initial post and I agree that it seems that an attempt to sunder is restricted to melee weapons. It just doesn't add up. You probably agree that one can hit an unattended object with a ranged attack. If one is able to hit a moving target with a ranged attack or ranged touch attack in the case of a weapon-like spell effect, why should it be plain impossible to aim at objects that the moving target carries or wields?