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Level Up (A5E) Sunset Riders Fantasy Western! (Campaign Setting thoughts)

Thanks for the interesting topic. It's fun to think about how to make all these things work together. Looking at your map can I ask that the western bit where you've crammed together Washington state and British Columbia be filled with a group of Druids and Artificers attempting to live side by side? Maybe even an enclave of coastal Wizards?

Other thoughts:
  • Firearms: I've played around with introducing Firearms to my campaigns and found what I think is a decent way to include them alongside normal "medieval" weapons. They are simple weapons with the Finesse and Firearm Loading (use an action to reload after X amount of shots instead of every shot) traits. For attack rolls you can use Dex/Str mod or just take +2. For damage rolls you can take 1dX+Dex/Str Mod or 2dX. It keeps firearms inside the current weapon paradigm for attack and damage rolls while also making them deadlier for lower level creatures to use. For those that care about the math you reach an approximate breakeven point with a +3 modifier. A +4 modifier and up being strictly better for anything short of a crit fishing build.
    • I actually tried this with crossbows in a non-firearms world to help set them apart from other ranged weapons. For a wild west setting I would probably take crossbows off the weapons table entirely.
  • Dragons: Throw out the chromatic vs metallic divide and go with wild vs robber baron. Two extreme ends of the spectrum. Wild dragons are a part of the land, have all your standard dragon abilities, but cap their size at young with a few adults across the entire continent. Make them excessively against unnatural change and modernization. Robber baron dragons on the other hand have traded in their size and appearance to be more humanoid. They still have their breath weapon, natural armor, frightful appearance, etc. but they can also wear a tailored suit, top hat, and fit inside buildings. I'd even ditch the wings and tail as a sign of how different they have become from their wild cousins. Both sets of dragons present their own sets of difficulties for people on the frontier. Just in vastly different ways.
  • Evil Empire(s): Hardly the first to comment on this and yet I won't let that stop me. I wouldn't include any strictly evil empires. I would include a few larger empires whose armies are vying for control of pieces of the frontier. The individual towns and territories would probably only pay lip service to whatever army has the nearest forts. Assume that most people living out here have left the countries of those armies behind intentionally. You can go with stand-ins for America in the east and Mississippi river region, Mexico to the south, British to the North, and have various Spanish and French interests scattered around. These groups can create conflict with each other. More of a random skirmish level of conflict than open war. The difficulties of holding territory far from home, desertion by soldiers who want to take up prospecting or farming, and a lack of an appetite for war and conquest due to one or more recent large scale conflicts not in the frontier can keep these groups from massively expanding.
  • Natives: At the time of the actual wild west you had a ton of different native cultures pretty much everywhere throughout the west. Mimicking that in a way that doesn't lead to design failure is beyond me. Also, how that works in a world with Elves, Dwarves, Humans, etc. is it's own wrinkle. So instead of doing that I would create a few larger nations of native peoples. It reduces cognitive load to remember 4 groups instead of 40 and you can spread them out in different geographical areas that impact what their culture is like. It can also inform who they are used to dealing with. An Apache or Navajo stand-in would probably have a lot of history with the Mexico stand-in, a Sioux stand-in would be more connected to the American and British stand-ins, and a Salish stand-in might have little contact with anyone other than other native groups and new settlers.
    • One difference from real life that I would implement is that the Native groups are more condensed geographically with large swathes of empty or near empty land between them. The combination of deadly monsters, magical or natural inhospitable terrain, and smaller populations could have constrained them a lot more. The influx of trains, guns, and a large amount of new people could be the difference in cutting through and settling these areas.
    • With new technologies, trade partners, and more people this is probably the best time for the Natives to also be looking at expanding. Either as a larger and slower force like our European groups or as smaller groups and individuals like the settlers. Unlike the foreign settlers who have all more or less chosen a new way of life, native groups might have greater struggles when it comes to the way things have been done vs these new paths made available. There's probably a cool hook in there that a better designer could take advantage of.
  • Size: Any creature of gargantuan size feels out of place to me in a setting like this. Capping most things at large with a few huge creatures is probably the way to go. I don't know exactly why I feel this way. Maybe it's because huge and gargantuan feel too epic for a western? Giant mechanical spiders not withstanding, if you can't put it on a train it's probably too big for the setting.
 

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Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
Thanks for the interesting topic. It's fun to think about how to make all these things work together. Looking at your map can I ask that the western bit where you've crammed together Washington state and British Columbia be filled with a group of Druids and Artificers attempting to live side by side? Maybe even an enclave of coastal Wizards?

Other thoughts:
  • Firearms: I've played around with introducing Firearms to my campaigns and found what I think is a decent way to include them alongside normal "medieval" weapons. They are simple weapons with the Finesse and Firearm Loading (use an action to reload after X amount of shots instead of every shot) traits. For attack rolls you can use Dex/Str mod or just take +2. For damage rolls you can take 1dX+Dex/Str Mod or 2dX. It keeps firearms inside the current weapon paradigm for attack and damage rolls while also making them deadlier for lower level creatures to use. For those that care about the math you reach an approximate breakeven point with a +3 modifier. A +4 modifier and up being strictly better for anything short of a crit fishing build.
    • I actually tried this with crossbows in a non-firearms world to help set them apart from other ranged weapons. For a wild west setting I would probably take crossbows off the weapons table entirely.
  • Dragons: Throw out the chromatic vs metallic divide and go with wild vs robber baron. Two extreme ends of the spectrum. Wild dragons are a part of the land, have all your standard dragon abilities, but cap their size at young with a few adults across the entire continent. Make them excessively against unnatural change and modernization. Robber baron dragons on the other hand have traded in their size and appearance to be more humanoid. They still have their breath weapon, natural armor, frightful appearance, etc. but they can also wear a tailored suit, top hat, and fit inside buildings. I'd even ditch the wings and tail as a sign of how different they have become from their wild cousins. Both sets of dragons present their own sets of difficulties for people on the frontier. Just in vastly different ways.
  • Evil Empire(s): Hardly the first to comment on this and yet I won't let that stop me. I wouldn't include any strictly evil empires. I would include a few larger empires whose armies are vying for control of pieces of the frontier. The individual towns and territories would probably only pay lip service to whatever army has the nearest forts. Assume that most people living out here have left the countries of those armies behind intentionally. You can go with stand-ins for America in the east and Mississippi river region, Mexico to the south, British to the North, and have various Spanish and French interests scattered around. These groups can create conflict with each other. More of a random skirmish level of conflict than open war. The difficulties of holding territory far from home, desertion by soldiers who want to take up prospecting or farming, and a lack of an appetite for war and conquest due to one or more recent large scale conflicts not in the frontier can keep these groups from massively expanding.
  • Natives: At the time of the actual wild west you had a ton of different native cultures pretty much everywhere throughout the west. Mimicking that in a way that doesn't lead to design failure is beyond me. Also, how that works in a world with Elves, Dwarves, Humans, etc. is it's own wrinkle. So instead of doing that I would create a few larger nations of native peoples. It reduces cognitive load to remember 4 groups instead of 40 and you can spread them out in different geographical areas that impact what their culture is like. It can also inform who they are used to dealing with. An Apache or Navajo stand-in would probably have a lot of history with the Mexico stand-in, a Sioux stand-in would be more connected to the American and British stand-ins, and a Salish stand-in might have little contact with anyone other than other native groups and new settlers.
    • One difference from real life that I would implement is that the Native groups are more condensed geographically with large swathes of empty or near empty land between them. The combination of deadly monsters, magical or natural inhospitable terrain, and smaller populations could have constrained them a lot more. The influx of trains, guns, and a large amount of new people could be the difference in cutting through and settling these areas.
    • With new technologies, trade partners, and more people this is probably the best time for the Natives to also be looking at expanding. Either as a larger and slower force like our European groups or as smaller groups and individuals like the settlers. Unlike the foreign settlers who have all more or less chosen a new way of life, native groups might have greater struggles when it comes to the way things have been done vs these new paths made available. There's probably a cool hook in there that a better designer could take advantage of.
  • Size: Any creature of gargantuan size feels out of place to me in a setting like this. Capping most things at large with a few huge creatures is probably the way to go. I don't know exactly why I feel this way. Maybe it's because huge and gargantuan feel too epic for a western? Giant mechanical spiders not withstanding, if you can't put it on a train it's probably too big for the setting.
After 1100 layoffs it's more like Mage on the Bay... but sure!

As far as Druids and Artificers: Yeah maybe. Though as noted elsewhere in the thread the intention is to have the major Druid groups (Emerald Enclave Equivalent) be -antagonistic- toward everyone. Less "Tree Hugging Hippie" more "Apex Predator".

Firearms I've got pretty well handled through A5e's ruleset, yeah.

Evil Empire is going to be a shadow dragon's evil Railroad Empire. Probably also trying to be an Oil Magnate and some other stuff. Industrialist capitalist imperialism rather than international imperialism.

Natives: Doing a few 'major nations' makes a lot of sense, yeah. I'm still worried about flanderization and racist characterization but I'm figuring things out.

Size: Yeah, pretty much. Except for Moose. Which can be as big as they want to be because I'm too scared of them to try and tell them "No".
 

Eyes of Nine

Everything's Fine
Tossed this together quick... click the thumbnail for the 4k image.
View attachment 342545

Dark green is "Heavily Forested". Mid-green is "Prairie/Grassland". Pale green is "Subtropical".

The yellow-white is pretty obviously desert. But orange is "Coral Highlands/High Desert". Brown is "Badlands"

Grey with snow is "Tundra". Green with snow is "Taiga".
Have you considered rotating the continent 90 or 180 degrees? Would then really cut the tie with current geography; but it would still be there if you looked - an easter egg if you will

Also, I will back the kickstarter at the physical tier (pending funds of course)

I look forward to whatever you come up with - I have found you to be both a thoughtful and open-minded creator who has strong opinions but also quick to pivot if a better idea is presented

The way you handled your use of AI art in Paranormal Power was a class act
 

Eyes of Nine

Everything's Fine
After 1100 layoffs it's more like Mage on the Bay... but sure!

Train Wreck Dont Wanna See It GIF by Out of Office


As far as Druids and Artificers: Yeah maybe. Though as noted elsewhere in the thread the intention is to have the major Druid groups (Emerald Enclave Equivalent) be -antagonistic- toward everyone. Less "Tree Hugging Hippie" more "Apex Predator".
:love:

Firearms I've got pretty well handled through A5e's ruleset, yeah.

I must have missed it - this will be an A5e setting then?

Evil Empire is going to be a shadow dragon's evil Railroad Empire. Probably also trying to be an Oil Magnate and some other stuff. Industrialist capitalist imperialism rather than international imperialism.

Natives: Doing a few 'major nations' makes a lot of sense, yeah. I'm still worried about flanderization and racist characterization but I'm figuring things out.

Consider hiring a cultural consultant earlier than later. You won't regret it, I guarantee it

Size: Yeah, pretty much. Except for Moose. Which can be as big as they want to be because I'm too scared of them to try and tell them "No".
Objectively logical position
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
I must have missed it - this will be an A5e setting then?
I mean... a setting can be used with any game system, but I'm basing this in A5e. Hence the Shadow Dragon Railroad Tycoon and such.

I'll include firearms rules and the SRD version of the Shadow Dragon, the A5e firearms rules, etc, from the SRD so 5e players can use it/adapt as needed.
Consider hiring a cultural consultant earlier than later. You won't regret it, I guarantee it
"Hiring" is gonna be an issue. Could do a short contracting of a cultural consultant, though. Finances and all.
Objectively logical position
Right?! Have you -seen- a Moose running through 6ft deep snow at 40mph?!
 

Eyes of Nine

Everything's Fine
I mean... a setting can be used with any game system, but I'm basing this in A5e. Hence the Shadow Dragon Railroad Tycoon and such.

agree settings are relatively easy to port over to any system; but having a default system in mind helps with things like big bad etc, as you identify

"Hiring" is gonna be an issue. Could do a short contracting of a cultural consultant, though. Finances and all.

Understood totally

Right?! Have you -seen- a Moose running through 6ft deep snow at 40mph?!
If there's such a thing as an anti-bucket list (things I hope to never experience), this is high on that list...
 

After 1100 layoffs it's more like Mage on the Bay... but sure!

As far as Druids and Artificers: Yeah maybe. Though as noted elsewhere in the thread the intention is to have the major Druid groups (Emerald Enclave Equivalent) be -antagonistic- toward everyone. Less "Tree Hugging Hippie" more "Apex Predator".

Firearms I've got pretty well handled through A5e's ruleset, yeah.

Evil Empire is going to be a shadow dragon's evil Railroad Empire. Probably also trying to be an Oil Magnate and some other stuff. Industrialist capitalist imperialism rather than international imperialism.

Natives: Doing a few 'major nations' makes a lot of sense, yeah. I'm still worried about flanderization and racist characterization but I'm figuring things out.

Size: Yeah, pretty much. Except for Moose. Which can be as big as they want to be because I'm too scared of them to try and tell them "No".
Totally missed the A5e bit so you've got firearms covered. The druids and artificers bit was just a joke about the actual people of the PNW.

Don't forget private enforcers if you want another type of evil faction.
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
Totally missed the A5e bit so you've got firearms covered. The druids and artificers bit was just a joke about the actual people of the PNW.

Don't forget private enforcers if you want another type of evil faction.
Since I'm using Appalachian miners as an oppressed group by the Railroad Tycoon you can bet your bottom dollar that the Pinkertons are going to be around to add another layer of capitalistic evil to the whole narrative. Union busting!
 

Eyes of Nine

Everything's Fine
Since I'm using Appalachian miners as an oppressed group by the Railroad Tycoon you can bet your bottom dollar that the Pinkertons are going to be around to add another layer of capitalistic evil to the whole narrative. Union busting!
And Magic the Gathering info-early-release busting!
 

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
Have you considered rotating the continent 90 or 180 degrees? Would then really cut the tie with current geography; but it would still be there if you looked - an easter egg if you will
I did this in my homebrew but with a map of Australia tilted 90 degrees. it works really well and does help to disconnect it from real world, despite having the same topography.

for my Maztica analogue I used a map of India as an island called An-Huacan, the Island of Tolton was a long narrow island (think Japan) to the north of An-Huacan (so no north american continent)

Natives:
DeviousQuail said:
So instead of doing that I would create a few larger nations of native peoples. It reduces cognitive load to remember 4 groups instead of 40 and you can spread them out in different geographical areas that impact what their culture is like. It can also inform who they are used to dealing with. An Apache or Navajo stand-in would probably have a lot of history with the Mexico stand-in, a Sioux stand-in would be more connected to the American and British stand-ins, and a Salish stand-in might have little contact with anyone other than other native groups and new settlers.
  • One difference from real life that I would implement is that the Native groups are more condensed geographically with large swathes of empty or near empty land between them. The combination of deadly monsters, magical or natural inhospitable terrain, and smaller populations could have constrained them a lot more. The influx of trains, guns, and a large amount of new people could be the difference in cutting through and settling these areas.

I think that it might be better to focus on the Pre-colonial Cities and large towns of North America as ‘points of light’ within the broader American ‘wilderness’. Cahokia (Illinois) was a city that in the 12th Century was bigger than London. Other cities were the Chaco Canyon Pueblo (New Mexico), Spiro Mounds (Oklahoma), Etzanoa (Kansas) and of course Teotihuacan (Mexico City).

The dichotomy of Civilisation v Wilderness is a fundamental pillar of Western Worldview, its seen in myth and folklore (Red Ridinghood v Wolf) and also in the prejudices of European Civilisation v Wild Native, and its even carried over to DnDs history of Adventurer v Monster. These are things to deconstruct in any setting and I think that emphasising the settled agrarian of native america is a way to do that- focussing the Native as citizen of complex, regulated communities and not the mysticism of ‘living in nature’.

A good example of that is the history of Patuxet, a coastal village of the Wampanoag Confederacy, which had a common government with delegates from its 60+ settlements. Patuxet came into contact with English Around 1614, the English taking some of the young men back to Europe as slaves. Some of those young men returned in 1619. Unfortunately the French brought disease to Patuxet around 1616 which lead to the village being abandoned. Then in 1620 a group of Puritan pilgrims arrive from England and choose to resettle Patuxet renaming it Plymoth, the Wampanoag chief Tisquantum can speak English and so the Wampanoag and the Pilgrims can communicate - the Pilgrims need food and protection, the Wampanoag need allies against outside aggressors.
It provides a good context for a settle agrarian native culture forging peaceful relations with colonist, especially in a world where disease isnt the great disruptor, and cause of displacement of many cultures (leading to many of the myths and misconceptions about Native Americans). It also has the benefit of framing the Plains Nomads culture as a distinct an atypical form, not to be generalised.

Now I’m Polynesian/Maori not Native American so feel free to disregard my opinion. However my Great great grandfather was a descendent of the second ship after the Mayflower who came out of Nantuckett Island in the 1840s chasing whales across the Pacific*, got shipwrecked and was rescued by my great great grandmother - so I do have an indirect link to New England/Massachusetts.

 
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