Super Speed Attack!

[delericho]

Robiliar's Gambit triggers whens someone strikes at you. Karmic Strike triggers when someone hits you. These are two separate triggers that generate two separate AoOs.

Cite please.

 

[Dandu]

You can look this up yourself, you know.

 

[delericho]

You can look this up yourself, you know.

I've read both of those. What they don't say is whether a single action (one attack) can provoke two AoOs.

And I now have a rules text to back up my interpretation that it does not. From the "Rules Compendium", p.19:

"Some abilities allow you to make more than one attack of opportunity per round. Most such abilities, unless they say otherwise, don't let you make more than make more than one attack for a given opportunity. If the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, however, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity. Each provoking act represents a different opportunity. Multiple attacks of opportunity otherwise follow the rules for normal attacks of opportunity."

The Fighter's opponent performs one act - a single attack (which might or might not be successful; nonetheless, it's one action). That's therefore one opportunity, and one AoO.

 

[Dandu]

I would contend that the opponent performs two acts: the act of striking at the fighter (making an attack roll), and the act of hitting him (succeeding on an attack roll).

 

[delericho]

Well, that is your prerogative. Needless to say, I emphatically disagree.

 

[Brainznolmz]

Hi Delericho, sorry for taking so long to reply to you.

Regarding the amount of attacks, the way I've always believed the B.a.B to work is that it is applied to every attack and every extra swing, meaning if Imp. two-weapon fighting gives an extra swing at a -5 penalty, that penalty, and any other bonuses/penalties will be added to the full base attack. So that extra off-hand swing at a level 20 B.a.B would be an additional +15/+10/+5/+0.

At least that is how I comprehended the rules in the core books. I do not have much experience in optional rulebooks and wouldn't know if any clarification contradicts by understanding. Please enlighten me though.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Hi Delericho, sorry for taking so long to reply to you.

Regarding the amount of attacks, the way I've always believed the B.a.B to work is that it is applied to every attack and every extra swing, meaning if Imp. two-weapon fighting gives an extra swing at a -5 penalty, that penalty, and any other bonuses/penalties will be added to the full base attack. So that extra off-hand swing at a level 20 B.a.B would be an additional +15/+10/+5/+0.

At least that is how I comprehended the rules in the core books. I do not have much experience in optional rulebooks and wouldn't know if any clarification contradicts by understanding. Please enlighten me though.

That is incorrect. The way TWF works is it lowers your accuracy by 2 to essentially get an extra attack in at the full BAB. It's exactly like the Rapid Shot feat or a Monk's Flurry of Blows in a way. So a BAB 12 fighter with plain old TWF would get a +10/+10/+5/+0 routine. A BAB 12 fighter with Improved TWF would get a +10/+10/+5/+5/+0 routine, by the way. The best I can tell is you seem to think that the TWF feats stack, but they simply don't. TWF lowers the penalties for getting the benefit of an extra attack, and Improved TWF grants one extra off-hand attack for a total of 2. The +10/+10 are the first two attacks, one with each weapon, then the +5/+5 are the two consecutive attacks, again one from each weapon, and since the wielder doesn't get a third attack from the off-hand weapon due to lack of Greater TWF, the final attack is +0 from the main hand.

A few WotC articles clarifying things can be found at: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060829a, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060905a, and http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060912a

 

[Empirate]

Hi Delericho, sorry for taking so long to reply to you.

Regarding the amount of attacks, the way I've always believed the B.a.B to work is that it is applied to every attack and every extra swing, meaning if Imp. two-weapon fighting gives an extra swing at a -5 penalty, that penalty, and any other bonuses/penalties will be added to the full base attack. So that extra off-hand swing at a level 20 B.a.B would be an additional +15/+10/+5/+0.

At least that is how I comprehended the rules in the core books. I do not have much experience in optional rulebooks and wouldn't know if any clarification contradicts by understanding. Please enlighten me though.

Yeah, well, you're doing it wrong, to be frank. BAB gives a maximum of 4 attacks, at progressively weaker (by -5) attack bonuses. TWF gives 1 more attack at your highest attack bonus, but you take a penalty of -2 to all attacks taken that round. ITWF gives another attack at -5 on top of that, and GTWF gives still another attack at -10. So with these three feats, you're getting a maximum of 7 attacks.

If you have natural weapons that don't take up your hands (a bite, tentacles etc.), you can use these in additional attacks. Likewise, some feats like Snap Kick and some other effects like Haste, Speed weapons etc., allow additional attacks. But off of your BAB and the two-weapon fighting tree, 7 attacks is all you get.

I don't know where you got the idea that each of these feats gives a whole attack sequence: this is never implied anywhere.



EDIT: Here's the relevant rules text:

[h=5]Base Attack Bonus[/h] A base attack bonus is an attack roll bonus derived from character class and level or creature type and Hit Dice (or combinations thereof). Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes and creature types. A second attack is gained when a base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher. Base attack bonuses gained from different sources, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack.

Note that this specifically spells out how many attacks you get from BAB (bolded part). Four is the maximum, at BAB of +16 or higher. E.g., you don't get a fifth attack even if your BAB is +21.

[h=3]Two-Weapon Fighting [General][/h] You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.

[h=5]Prerequisite[/h] Dex 15.
[h=5]Benefit[/h] Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.
[h=5]Normal[/h] If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)

[h=5]Special[/h] A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.
A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.

[h=3]Improved Two-Weapon Fighting [General][/h] [h=5]Prerequisites[/h] Dex 17, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
[h=5]Benefit[/h] In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a -5 penalty. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.

[h=5]Normal[/h] Without this feat, you can only get a single extra attack with an off-hand weapon.

[h=5]Special[/h] A fighter may select Improved Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.
A 6th-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

[h=3]Greater Two-Weapon Fighting [General][/h] [h=5]Prerequisites[/h] Dex 19, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.
[h=5]Benefit[/h] You get a third attack with your off-hand weapon, albeit at a -10 penalty. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.

[h=5]Special[/h] A fighter may select Greater Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.
An 11th-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

I highlighted the important parts. The number of extra attacks you get from this feat tree is explicitly spelled out, no ambiguity.

 

[Brainznolmz]

I highlighted the important parts. The number of extra attacks you get from this feat tree is explicitly spelled out, no ambiguity.

I see my mistake now. I have to say it was a bummer of a mistake on my part, even though I did read through those exact Phb texts over and over, I still got it all wrong.

The root of what I did wrong was assuming that the B.a.B applies to EVERYTHING. So one extra attack doesn't mean one roll, it means one extra Base Attack, but with the penalties of TWF. Something about the word 'attack' being used so much in combat rules blurs the definition for me whenever it is used. I can still read those Phb texts and see it both ways.

Thank you for the clarification! I'll keep this thread up in case others can learn from my mistakes, and also because of some neat things that were posted.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

If you really want a boatload of attacks, there's the Crescent Knife from Dragon 275. It's an exotic light weapon, but every attack with it is actually two separate attacks. Add this onto a monk's flurry (and there's a feat to allow flurrying with any light weapon), plus TWF+, plus stuff like Haste (because the Speed enhancement is overpriced), and it's possible to get at least 16 attacks.

The thing that takes the cake though is with crossbows. There's an old enhancement called Splitting that doubles attacks. Rapid Shot technically allows an extra attack per wielded weapon (so two hand crossbows would both get an extra attack each), and a fighter variant called Targetteer gets an improved version of Rapid Shot called Arrow Storm which allows two extra attacks per weapon. A tame interpretation of the exotic double hand crossbow also grants an extra attack per weapon. All told, a Targetteer with a way to reload the crossbows while wielding both can get at least 24 attacks. Oh, and the targetteer can get 2.5x his dex to damage on every one of those hits (though it takes a bit of work and a couple items to bypass crit immunity on some stuff).

Those things are high optimization, but aren't theoretical optimization like that 1mil+ build is. No sane DM would allow it (and many insane ones wouldn't either.)