Superhero D20?

[Zenon]

A couple of questions, ideally for people who've played it:

- I've heard/read that power creation is difficult/confusing/poorly worded. Agree, disagree? Would it be fair to compare it to, say, 3.0 D&D's discussion of AoOs?

Hmm, this is hard to answer. High cost powers or powers that do many things are constructed using a "building block" type of power construction of lesser effects. To be honest, it took me a little while to wrap my mind around it, but once I "got" it I wonder why it gave me so much trouble. Must be too many years of HERO system. On the otherhand, I understood AoO's in 3.x with no trouble at all. It's all subjective. There is a great forum provided by Green Ronin to ask questions in if you get confused, but like all forums, take what you hear as opinions.

- Should I buy now (or, say, around Christmas) or wait for another printing with errata fixed? Is another printing coming up?

This question comes up often on the forum. To my knowledge, the first printing has not sold out yet, so there are no current plans/date for a second printing. I would assume that current errata would be added into that printing when it happens.

- How do they handle ordinaries (vaguely, without giving me specifics), nonheroic ordinary folks? Do they just have low-power builds?

Powers have a Source in MnM. One of the Source choices is Training, so your Batman-type character should be able to be as effective as your Superman-type. Alternatively, the GM can decide to limit how many levels of power might be bought with the Training Source if he wanted (but that isn't in the rules, it's a house rule that some use). If you're taking about Normals (in Champion-speak) like standard Police, Thugs, etc - then they have lower power builds (PL3 vs. a PL10 hero). But, NPC Minions do not have to follow the PL restriction of power limits, meaning a PL3 police office could carry a +7L rifle. Normally damage ranks of powers are limited to your PL.

Is combat fast?

Depending on what you fight, yes it can be very fast. Bunch of Minions? Wade throught them like wheat. Opposing multi-member supervillain team? Might take longer with a bunch of players. I find it's faster than D&D combat. This is also one of the reasons I chose to run MnM over Deeds Not Words, a DNW character looks like an Epic Level D&D character. Knowing that, can you image what combat in that system must be like? I'd rather use HERO at that point.

Can you do combat without minis?

I use minis, it's just something I've always done. I have heard on the MnM boards of people running it without minis and they seem to have no problem with it. MnM combat does not have AoO's, so that make not using minis easier.

Is combat fun and inventive? I mean, D&D combat is fun, but highly tactical, and it's increasingly tough (though not impossible) to handle sans miniatures. And at high levels, D&D combat is almost never fast, unless your team has been planning for an entire week in order to destroy the balor they met right at your cliffhanger ending in less than three rounds of combat.

My group came off 3.0 D&D (two years of slogging through RttToEE) run my yours truly. After that I needed a D&D break, so I picked MnM to run. I see more fun and animation from my players in MnM than in D&D, and I'm having a blast DM'ing it. In comic book tradition, power gains are much slower than D&D's level advancement.

Note though, it may still be possible to "one puch" someone in MnM, or have a superhero with a power that totally wipes the floor with one of the bad guys. However, MnM includes Hero Point/Villain Points that can be used to re-roll, up defense, etc., so you can make the beginning of the fight last longer if your dice fail you.

- Thanks!

Hope the above helps, I recommend MnM as one of the best SH systems I've seen (and I've been a Champions player since about 1982 or so). Fast, fairly simple and very enjoyable.

 

[Krieg]

No! I have heard nothing about it (which is wierd).

My thoughts exactly.

Have you read through it Krieg?

No, I just happened to be browsing RPGNow in another while reading this thread & stumbled across it. It looks like it just came out.

While it's probably not something I would use for a straight supers game, I was curious to see if it had any ideas worth steal....err...borrowing.

The total lack of buzz regarding it doesn't raise my hopes however.

(The similarity of the cover to The Foundation's doesn't help either.)

 

[Teflon Billy]

A couple of questions, ideally for people who've played it:

- I've heard/read that power creation is difficult/confusing/poorly worded. Agree, disagree? Would it be fair to compare it to, say, 3.0 D&D's discussion of AoOs?

I would say "Agree" on this one. The power creation, while appearing simple on it's surface, gets pretty damn complex when you start adding in Extras, Flaws and Power Stunts to the mix.

Mostly it's a question of the costs of such power groupings. It's is very, very unclear in the rules as to how the price breaks occur for Extras and Flaws when they are embedded deep in the "power structure" (For instance, you would generally get a cost break on a power for having attached to another power

Like, for example, if your Protection was a sub-function of your Super-Constitution, protection would cost 1 power point/level rather than 2. Now, if you attach a Flaw to Super-Constitution--like "only at night" or something--does that affect the Protection as well? If so, what is the benefit, as power point Cost per level cannot go below 1. If not, why not? The powers are linked.

It just goes downhill from there if you attach another power to Super Constitution's extra: Protection. Assume it is a 1 power point/level Superpower like Amazing Save: Reflex...with the pp cost/level unable to go below 1, is there any point in this at all?

There are also easily exploitable peculiarities in the system like Having your base power (Say, Amazing Save: Reflex again) as a 1pp/level power, then attaching a 2pp/level power to it as an Extra (say the aforementioned Protection).

With the Cost break of 1pp/level for having Protection as an extra, you wind up getting Amazing Save: Reflex and Protection forthe same ost as Protection alone.

It's a great system if you have players who are not prone to abusing rules (or you don't care), but when people rave about the simplicity of the system, i think they are holding it up to HERO's example...which is saying that building a television from scratch is easier than building a particle accelerator. it's true, but does the fact that it's easier make it easy?

- Should I buy now (or, say, around Christmas) or wait for another printing with errata fixed? Is another printing coming up?

They haven't announced one yet. GReen ronin are very concerned about their retailers, and don't want anyone to "get stuck" with first printings. They haven't annouced a date for the second printing, but the Errata is available on their site for free and is well-organized and designed.

- How do they handle ordinaries (vaguely, without giving me specifics), nonheroic ordinary folks? Do they just have low-power builds?

Low power builds, exactly. Though they have examples of Normals for use in the book, and their supplement Crooks has an incredibly good selection of "mooks" (low-power build criminals).

- Is combat fast?

Like V&V before it, this is where Mutants and mAsterminds truly comes into it's own. Gameplay is fast, easy and models comic book superheroics really, really well.

Can you do combat without minis?

We have never done it any other way.

Is combat fun and inventive? I mean, D&D combat is fun, but highly tactical, and it's increasingly tough (though not impossible) to handle sans miniatures. And at high levels, D&D combat is almost never fast, unless your team has been planning for an entire week in order to destroy the balor they met right at your cliffhanger ending in less than three rounds of combat.

Mutants and Masterminds is the polar opposite of this. The Hero Point mechanic let's you get very inventive, as you can use basically any power or effect in the book for one round with a hero point expenditure.

This is also a great way to model villains who have done something once or twice in the comics...you don't need to have Thor's ability to Travel the dimensions by spinning his hammer on your M&M Thor's power list: just spend a hero point and off you go.

So when you as a player are struck with inspiration in the middle of a fight, spend the Hero point and Voila! Spider man has used his webbing to make "Glider Wings" (Flight, flaw: Gliding only) or a "Bullet Shield" (Deflection, Flaw: Device) or whatever. Very flexible and very true to the genre.

It's already on my Amazon wishlist, so my default option is to just leave it there and delicately suggest it to people who ask me what I want for Christmas. This is a good chance to warn me off if you think it's a horrible idea because of things that I asked about above.

I think it's an awesome game and you should definitely leave it there and drop those hints.

 

[takyris]

Zenon, Teflon B -- thanks. Exactly what I needed to know. I checked the M&M messageboard, and kind of had a feel for what people who played the game thought of it, but I wanted to hear what people who usually play D&D think of it. That's what I'm gonna have to sell to my group, and that's, frankly, what I am. This helps a bunch.

Danke -- it will continue to hold a cherished spot on my wishlist.

 

[Ranger REG]

the only thing I wish M&M had that it lacks is a fairly detailed "Merits and Flaws" type system...

With all due respect, I have never been a fan of the flaw mechanics used in many games, with the exception of Mutants & Masterminds (where they detailed flaw options for each powers). I have yet to see a good flaw mechanics that doesn't offer too many freebie points for you to spend, especially when some flaws can be roleplayed without having any game effect, which IMHO, is a poor way to teach ROLE-PLAYING to gamers.

Mind you, I have not seen Blood and Vigilance.

 

[Teflon Billy]

I have yet to see a good flaw mechanics that doesn't offer too many freebie points for you to spend, especially when some flaws can be roleplayed without having any game effect, which IMHO, is a poor way to teach ROLE-PLAYING to gamers.

Amen to that Ranger REG

I could not agree more with that statement. I think it's actually a line from HERO System that says "if something is not in any way disadvantageous, then it is not a disadvantage".

And I am, and always have been, 100% against providing a mechanical benefit for a roleplaying Detriment.

 

[Krieg]

Since we already seem to be off on a tangent....

Has anyone contrasted/compared Vigilance: Absolute Power & Deeds Not Words?

I've seen the various reviews of each individually, but haven't seen a point-by-point break down of both.

 

[swrushing]

Amen to that Ranger REG

I could not agree more with that statement. I think it's actually a line from HERO System that says "if something is not in any way disadvantageous, then it is not a disadvantage".

And I am, and always have been, 100% against providing a mechanical benefit for a roleplaying Detriment.

i have grown dissatisified with the flaw mechanic in MNM as well. Not picking on MNM, years of HERo taught me to dislike how it handled it.

I am moving to a pay-for-pain system in my next MNM game.

Flaws will no longer reduce power cost, nor will weaknesses add points up front. Instead, players choose whatever flaws and weaknesses they choose as long as they end up with a playable character. These dont have to meet a given rank of effect, so one guy can say his protection fails completely against silver while another guy says his force field is halved against Xray lasers and both are good.

The key is this... the payback is that at the end of any scene in which a pc flaw/weakness caused him to underperform in significant and noticeable ways (cost him say more than 1/5 of his actions for example) so that its obvious the flaw was a detriment to his performance, the character will get bonus hero points. hero points will not be as freely given so getting them thru flaws will be important.

Whatbthis does is turn around the previous focus for the player. The player now WANTS his flaws to be meaningful and have obvious impact in play, because those will be the cases when he gets rewarded for them. This shifts the focus for the Gm from trying to script situations to punish the PCs because they took points ahead of time (i call this the loan shark flaw method) to running scenarios and only seeing the flaws when it makes sense to do so.

i really like those reversals of the typical focus.

It also means, player pay for their powers. period. No shenanigans, just pay for the powers. heck, i am even considering dropping the powers as extras thing and saying "pay for everything full price and get done with it and lets play." Only thing i think i will keep as a price break are power stunts.

MNM is a wonderful game and the best supers rpg i have seen in ages. its biggest failings are IMO where it kind of kept doing things "the way they have always been done" with ECs (extras) and flaws.

 

[Vigilance]

With all due respect, I have never been a fan of the flaw mechanics used in many games, with the exception of Mutants & Masterminds (where they detailed flaw options for each powers). I have yet to see a good flaw mechanics that doesn't offer too many freebie points for you to spend, especially when some flaws can be roleplayed without having any game effect, which IMHO, is a poor way to teach ROLE-PLAYING to gamers.

Mind you, I have not seen Blood and Vigilance.

Heya REG

The way Vigilance handles character disadvantages is simple, you get nothing up front. When the disad appears in the game, you get XP equal to the disadvantage rating as if it were a CR (in effect your disadvantage is treated as a foe to overcome).

I think that's pretty cool, but Im biased

Chuck

 

[SmokestackJones]

Hey there,

Do I really need to add my voice? M&M all the way.

-SJ