Superhero Systems Needed

[Dausuul]

I am currently running an Aberrant campaign. If you don't know Aberrant, it's White Wolf's take on the superhero genre. Fantastic setting, all sorts of factions and politics and interesting NPCs... and an absolutely abysmal game system; "clunky" does not begin to describe it. So, I'm thinking about keeping the campaign but switching to a more functional system. Two names I've seen pop up a lot over the last couple of years are Savage Worlds (which apparently has a superhero expansion book), and Mutants & Masterminds.

Savage Worlds looks quite interesting to me, but I gather it's not really geared for superheroics. Can anyone familiar with the superpowers book confirm or deny?

Mutants & Masterminds is, of course, a dedicated superhero game. However, just at a glance, it looks like it has a lot of D&D 3E in its genetic code. If I'm the type of GM who detests 3E and never wants to run it again (way too much bookkeeping and number-crunching), how am I likely to feel about M&M?

Any other system suggestions are welcome, too!

 

[Eccles]

I think you'll get an awful lot of recommendations for Mutants and Masterminds, though I'm not that comfortable with it.

Though it's out of print these days then the DC Heroes system (later reprinted as 'Blood of Heroes') is still my favourite for insanely straightforward really-well scaled supers stuff...

 

[Dausuul]

I think you'll get an awful lot of recommendations for Mutants and Masterminds, though I'm not that comfortable with it.

What makes you uncomfortable about it?

Though it's out of print these days then the DC Heroes system (later reprinted as 'Blood of Heroes') is still my favourite for insanely straightforward really-well scaled supers stuff...

Thanks! I'll check it out.

 

[billd91]

One of the things you may face in superhero RPGs is a bit of book keeping - at least with respect to generating characters. Many are either based on a point system (like Champions or Mutants and Masterminds) or rely on some number crunching in character generation (Villains and Vigilantes). Champions and M&M do this, in part, to make it possible to balance power options against each other as well as provide the ability to model subtle differences in superhero powers.

Once in play, however, Mutants and Masterminds isn't particularly number crunchy unless a character has variable powers (which it sounds like you'd want to avoid anyway). Champions remains pretty number crunchy. And most superhero games include at least some ablative stats like V&V's hit points and power scores, Champions' body, stun, and endurance, Marvel Superheroes' health and karma, and so on.

So I guess a lot depends on what sorts of number crunching you want to avoid.

I would also suggest you not prejudge M&M because it's an OGL game. There are big differences between M&M and D&D.

 

[Crothian]

I think if you've been running Abberant then M&M 3e won't have more book keeping for you. It's just different book keeping.

 

[Celebrim]

I'll join the likely chorus on M&M.

My only problem with it is that I think that Super Speed is underpriced, and indeed that superspeed is simply inherently problimatic in play. I don't think this is a problem with the system, but a problem inherent with the concept of superspeed and probably extends to all systems.

As far as number crunchy goes, M&M is much crunchier than D&D during character creation, but tends to be much less fussy in play. I suppose you could create characters that would tend to be very fussy to play (shape-shifters and mimics of various sorts), but for the most part the game encourages you to get most of the calculation out of the way during character creation. My suggestion would be to run M&M but put some restrictions on character creation.

But, if you really really hate number crunchy, I think you are going to have a hard time enjoying any Supers system. The less crunchy sort aren't going to capture the feel, and the more crunchy sort will bug you.

 

[Kannik]

I can put in a word about Champions/HERO system, for I've gamed in it many a time and enjoyed myself a-plenty. It's very flexible and a great example of an effects-based system. As for how it runs (is it "clunky") I think it's very group dependent. I've played in games where it's very smooth in play, and in games where it was slow in play. Most of the math takes place during char creation, and there's a bit of math in determining the to-hit number.

And, of course, the math from tallying up 12d6 energy blasts. But that's part of the fun too! (who doesn't like throwing buckets and buckets of dice?)

gamingly,

Kannik

 

[Dausuul]

As far as number crunchy goes, M&M is much crunchier than D&D during character creation, but tends to be much less fussy in play. I suppose you could create characters that would tend to be very fussy to play (shape-shifters and mimics of various sorts), but for the most part the game encourages you to get most of the calculation out of the way during character creation. My suggestion would be to run M&M but put some restrictions on character creation.

I can handle crunchy chargen; that's what spreadsheets are for. Besides, I'm the GM. I'm not making player characters, just NPCs. If I can whip up an NPC fast when I need one, that's good enough for me.

And I don't mind doing a little math in play. What I don't want is a lot of fiddly little modifiers flying around, or re-calculating derived attributes on the fly. For example, if you get hit with Strength damage in 3E, you have to go around adjusting your attack bonus, your damage, encumbrance, etc. This is a Nuisance. Likewise, I don't want to be tracking "five rounds left on this effect, two rounds left on that one, has the debuff worn off yet?"

(I'm sure M&M is a better system than Aberrant, but that's like saying something is colder than the surface of Venus.)

 

[FunkBGR]

You already own a lot of d10s?

Try the One Roll Engine.

Wild Talents, by Arc Dream Publishing, is the generic superhero rules, but they have a couple of settings too if that's your bag. It has some crunch to it, and goes *quick* for figuring out how turns resolve.

Link to an overview of it. Plus, the base book can be had for $10 for a small digest sized book, or there's a Kindle Edition on Amazon, or the pdf or the nice shiny hardcover (which is worth it too).

 

[Eccles]

What makes you uncomfortable about it?

I'm really not too sure. I think it was just too ... messy. Power levels, the super-speed mentioned above, seemed to be difficult to make a character without a 9 page spreadsheet. And a certain lack of flexibility in changing the character.

I may've been spoiled by a system which only uses 2d10 and a table which only the DM needs to understand...

I have to confess that we didn't play it for a huge length of time, so I might not be giving it fair crack of the whip. Also, I really love DC Heroes and may just be plain biased...

 

[SSquirrel]

Out of curiosity what issues are you having w/Aberrant? I've run it a decent bit and except for a few small character gen tweaks, it's always run fine for me. I did have a lot of experience w/OWoD in the 90s which probably doesn't hurt. I have always liked Aberrant b/c it wasn't hard to build what I wanted and considering dice pools are always just 2 stats, it's pretty simple.

I have a copy of the Supers book for Savage Worlds, but haven't looked it over a whole lot honestly. I haven't touched M&M since 1st Ed and they have 3rd Ed out now or out soon, so that's been awhile Considering it is an OGL game tho, it is d20 at heart, so if you don't like 3E era D&D, that would be a mark against it.

 

[Ariosto]

TSR's "FASERIP" Marvel Super Heroes is very light (less so with Advanced), and captures the feel of its subject, well, marvelously. There's a "retro clone" called Four Colors (4C) that naturally lacks all the trademarked Marvel references.

Villains & Vigilantes is sort of like old TSR D&D. Whether that's funky in a good way or a bad way is a matter of taste.

 

[Stacie GmrGrl]

I will recommend Mutants and Masterminds 3rd edition and tell you that it is finally the edition of the game that has taken many of its roots from the d20 system and gotten rid of them, making it its own game system. 2e didn't go far enough for me. 3e, though, is really fun.

3e is very customizable, effects based and simple. It has a fairly decent in system design for balance that puts all characters within the same ballpark within a single Power Level. It works.

I'll also say that Wild Talents 2e is awesome, Supers! is simple simple fun and avoid Savage Worlds for superhero games (its wonky and doesn't really work, IMO).

If you want a more comic book feel M&M3e is the way to go. If you want a gritty game where you have the chance of really dying than go with Wild Talents (which can be modulated to fit not as gritty games).

If you're kind of a sadist than I can also recommend Heroes Unlimited (a Palladium books supers game)

 

[SSquirrel]

Stacie, he said he didn't want a clunky system, that rules out anything Palladium Heck I was a fan of the 4 Colors to Fantasy that ENWorld did, but that is more fitting super powers into a D&D type game heh

 

[Stacie GmrGrl]

Stacie, he said he didn't want a clunky system, that rules out anything Palladium Heck I was a fan of the 4 Colors to Fantasy that ENWorld did, but that is more fitting super powers into a D&D type game heh

Well I did start that by saying 'if you're a sadist' but I will take it back... Palladium is, if anything, one of the most clunky systems ever designed. .

I missed that part of the OP. Please don't punish me with thrown tomatoes or tossed school buses or toppled skyscrapers or energy beams or other-dimensional-beings-bent-on-world-domination.

 

[jaerdaph]

Mutants & Masterminds is, of course, a dedicated superhero game. However, just at a glance, it looks like it has a lot of D&D 3E in its genetic code. If I'm the type of GM who detests 3E and never wants to run it again (way too much bookkeeping and number-crunching), how am I likely to feel about M&M?

I have heard quite a few people over at RPGNet say that while they didn't care for the d20 System at all, they actually liked the implementation in 2e M&M and 3e M&M too.

That said, if you are looking for a much more rules-lite system for supers, I would highly recommend ICONS Superpowered Roleplaying from Adamant Entertainment. I've been playing it regularly for over a year now and I've really enjoyed it. I love the system - it plays very well but doesn't get in the way.

 

[Dausuul]

Thanks to everyone who's answered so far! Your suggestions are immensely helpful. You've gone a long way to assuage my concerns about M&M, and given me quite a few other options to look at as well.

Out of curiosity what issues are you having w/Aberrant? I've run it a decent bit and except for a few small character gen tweaks, it's always run fine for me. I did have a lot of experience w/OWoD in the 90s which probably doesn't hurt. I have always liked Aberrant b/c it wasn't hard to build what I wanted and considering dice pools are always just 2 stats, it's pretty simple.

Combat is an unholy mess--takes forever to resolve a single round, what with the stack-style initiative and having to hold back actions to dodge and keeping track of dice pools and all the myriad ways powers interact. The rules are often unclear and sometimes flatly contradict themselves. Many power mechanics are stupidly convoluted and make you look up other powers for no apparent reason: "Treat this power as if using that other power, except they don't actually work the same, so figure out how to reconcile that."

Powers with durations have to be tracked round-by-round in combat, and each power has its own duration--at least D&D was reasonably consistent about "one round per level." Powers range from the pathetic (Bioluminescence) to the absurdly broken (Telepathy). Chargen uses two distinct point systems, and then a third point system is used for advancement. The dice pool mechanic leads to wild variations in outcomes.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. I could deal with it if not for the combat system. A couple of my players like to get their fight on, and I normally enjoy a good tussle, but I shy away from starting combat in Aberrant because it eats up hours of game time--it makes the grindiest 4E fight you ever saw look brisk.

 

[NexusX]

I'd have to say that overall, M&M is a pretty fun game. I've only played 1st and 2nd Ed. though, not the latest.

My only beefs with M&M 2 were that coming up with how to go from the concept of your hero to the best way to represent that using the rules was for my gaming group, a bit daunting. Most hero designs weren't that bad, but there were some that were quite complicated, and I always got the feeling that there might be a better way to design it (you see, they give you lots of options on how to build the powers).

Also, I've never liked Wealth systems, which they use, nor am I into the level of abstraction they use for health, though both of these systems do work well to give you the comic-book feel. Personally, I like a grittier health system and more choices in races and such. But for what they were trying to do, they did a pretty good job. And as some have said here, 3rd Ed. is supposed to be better. Me, I've been making supers using the Cosmothea RPG, but that's not on the market yet, and if you like M&M's health and Wealth systems, then you might not like mine anyway. So, for now at least, my suggestion would be M&M 3.

 

[hopeless]

Icons

I agree wit take a look at Icons, its a fairly quick and simple system though try the pdf if you don't fancy paying for the hard print version, it really depends on what you fancy.

I bought Aberrants never got to run it and would have used it to generate up the aberrants or novas in the Trinity era rather than use the mentioned setting since I rather liked the idea that there was to what had been going on than simply the supers turning cthulhu!

 

[SilverSnake]

I've found M&M to break at lower levels. The hubbs ran a one-off superhero game with Savage Worlds last week at our FLGS, and it went over great. The system worked nicely for the powers, and everyone had a great time.