Surprise or no surprise?

[Nareau]

Just to toss my 2 coppers in:
I would either give the monsters a +4 circumstance bonus to initiative, or allow them to ready actions against the PC's (effectively allowing them to win initiative automatically). It's a good compromise between surprise and not-surprise.

Spider

 

[Nail]

The real question is:

Can there be a battle if one side is unaware of it?

Nope. That's a different question. A question that begs the question, even.

I'm confident the newcomer rule has no bearing before combat begins. As the spectre and the golem are not fighting, combat can only begin when the opposite side arrives.

Rather straightforward, really.

I think they are more aware of potential danger and the form it might take, but they are not actually aware of their opponents until they open the door. Otherwise, this opens a can of worms with regard to every door in the future.

FWIW, I agree with this bit.

So: we agree there should be a surprise round. I think the surprise round happens when the PCs open the door. You don't? Why?

This doesn't have to be complicated.....unless there's a Hobo involved. Hobos always complicate things.

 

[Nail]

If the Spectre detects half the party, does the other half get to surprise the spectre?

Quite possibly.

What if they expected an evil spectre and open the door to be greeted by an evil dragon?

Now that.....that is a good question.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

This is incorrect. Awareness is also relevant before combat starts.

RAW itself states that you can be aware rounds in advance in order to prepare.

There is "aware" in the sense of tipped off, and "aware" in the sense of Surprise mechanics. They are not necessarily the same thing.

I might start buffing in response to a suspicious dustdevil approaching. But if there is an Invisible Djinn hidden in there I might still conceivably get Surprised.

Even if you rule that combat itself does not start until you can potentially attack (which is reasonable), RAW still states that the aware side can prepare ahead of time and also, the side that is aware gets a free standard action before initiative is ever rolled.

If, for the sake of argument, you accept that Initiative does not happen until combat is possible, then there is no Surprise. The moment that the door is open, the party is presumed to be aware (or at least get their Spot checks). There is no moment in time when both the door is open and the party is automatically unaware. It is a chicken and egg problem.

 

[Thanee]

Not opponents who are Newcomers. They come in much later and do not get to take combat actions until they get there.

There are no newcomers in that scenario. Just the party and the opponents.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

RAW itself states that you can be aware rounds in advance in order to prepare.

Absolutely. They can prepare. The spectre can tell the golems, that the party is coming. They could move around into better positions, use whatever means they have to "buff" themselves, and so on.

They just cannot ready, since there is no combat.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pielorinho]

Out of curiosity, what if the spectre attacked the golems, readying an action to attack them as soon as they started casting spells? Combat would therefore begin, and the spectre and golems would lose their first actions; after that, they could continuously ready actions to attack any newcomers to the fight, right?

Daniel

 

[moritheil]

Actually, if the PCs went throught the door the round after the Spectre became aware of them, then they and the golems would roll initiative as normal, since being notified during the suprise round doesn't allow them to act. If it does, then I have been seriously screwed over by GMs.

More or less, yeah, that was evident early on. If it makes you feel better, you can realize that every player is, at some point or another, screwed over by the DMs, because without that screwing over, the game loses much of its playability.

 

[Thanee]

You cannot attack your allies, only opponents.

Bye
Thanee

 

[moritheil]

You cannot attack your allies, only opponents.

Bye
Thanee

Your players are much more well-behaved than mine.