Surprise or no surprise?

[Thanee]

The problem with readying actions outside combat is the commando style move+ready while exploring.

Also it completely defies the initiative system, since initiative is then directed by ready actions more than by dice rolls.

Everyone readies, except for one (the one with the highest initiative), who opens the door.
Whoever is inside, will be after almost everyone, since they act just an instance before that someone due to their ready actions.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pielorinho]

The problem with readying actions outside combat is the commando style move+ready while exploring.

Also it completely defies the initiative system, since initiative is then directed by ready actions more than by dice rolls.

Everyone readies, except for one (the one with the highest initiative), who opens the door.
Whoever is inside, will be after almost everyone, since they act just an instance before that someone due to their ready actions.

Bye
Thanee

Keep in mind that, with the rules-as-written, this is a perfectly valid way to play: players just have to keep up a mock-combat with one another in order to accomplish this.

Secondly, the people inside the room have the same option, as long as they realize that someone is on the outside: by starting a mock-combat with one another. The question then becomes, how do we determine who goes first when multiple people have readied actions with the same trigger (a door's opening, for example)?

Thirdly, if the players do this when the people inside the room are unaware, then they're putting all their eggs in one basket: they're all going to go on the initiative order of the person who opens the door. They could put the rogue in charge of door-opening (since the rogue will probably have the highest initiative bonus), but that means the rogue forfeits attacking during the surprise round, something most rogues are loathe to do.

Daniel

 

[dungeon blaster]

Interesting. I can actually imagine that adventurers might move in a "commando"-style fashion.

I'm against the idea that a surprise round occurs when an encounter begins. Imagine an invisible stalker following a group of PCs down a hallway. Should the Stalker choose to continue following the PCs for another two rounds, I still believe that it would get surprise when it chooses to attack on the 3rd round because the PCs are still "unaware" of the Stalker.

I'd say that if the PC's have a reasonable belief that a specific enemy is behind a door, they are considered aware and will not be surprised. In this case they would be surpised if no one was there

AFAIK, a ready action is a reaction to another creature's action. So you can't ready an action to move into another room and attack whatever is in there. However, you could ready an action to attack whatever enters your room. Which is what the iron golems and spectre do. Therefore, they act as if they rolled a 20, the PC's roll initiative normally. If the spectre decides instead to travel through the floor and attack the PCs in the hallway, that would constitute surprise, as they expected the spectre to be in the room, not the hallway.

 

[Thanee]

Keep in mind that, with the rules-as-written, this is a perfectly valid way to play: players just have to keep up a mock-combat with one another in order to accomplish this.

But that is, as you surely realize, completely stupid, while readying - if allowed - is not.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Thirdly, if the players do this when the people inside the room are unaware, then they're putting all their eggs in one basket: they're all going to go on the initiative order of the person who opens the door.

How so? They just ready on any potential threats inside, not on the opening of the door. Then their actions will be resolved before the opponents (inside) can act.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pielorinho]

How so? They just ready on any potential threats inside, not on the opening of the door. Then their actions will be resolved before the opponents (inside) can act.

Bye
Thanee

From the SRD:

Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.

(emphasis added)

Note that your action occurs before the action that triggers it. So if you ready it based off an action that the enemy takes, you forfeit your ability to act during the suprise round.

--of course, now that I think about it, using this trick means that everyone forfeits the surprise round, anyway: as soon as the door is opened, the enemies are counted as "newcomers" to the fight, and get to act in the same round that the door is opened. This is, therefore, a suboptimal strategy under circumstances that could otherwise gain surprise for the characters.

As for:

But that is, as you surely realize, completely stupid, while readying - if allowed - is not.

As I said, it's legal by the RAW, and unless we want to be "completely stupid," we need to change the RAW in some way or another. My preference is to change in a way that minimizes the placement of restrictions on character actions. I would therefore allow readied actions, within reason, outside of combat (instead of forcing players to start mock-combats in order to gain this advantage), with the understanding that by doing so, they forfeit any possibility of gaining a surprise round on opponents.

Daniel

 

[Thanee]

There is really no need to change the RAW.

Combats are meant to take place between allies and opponents, not between allies and allies.

Sure, there are some extreme circumstances, when you would want to use a combat maneuver against an ally, but those are exceptions, and not relevant.

Just leave those stupid combats-that-are-not-really-combats aside, and the rules work perfectly fine.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pielorinho]

There is really no need to change the RAW.

Combats are meant to take place between allies and opponents, not between allies and allies.

Yeah, but who gets to decide who an ally is? I disagree that there's no need to change the RAW: if you're suggesting what I think you're suggesting, then you're saying that a character no longer gets to choose who is her ally and who is not. That's a pretty dangerous precedent to set: see previous conversations on using "Bless" as the ultimate find-the-traitor spell. Not a road you want to go down.

Daniel

 

[Thanee]

I'm not suggesting anything besides using some common sense there.

Bye
Thanee

 

[William_2]

The problem with this whole "characters (or bad guys) attack each other to ready actions for anticipated opponents" concept is that it is mega-huge, totally off-the-map metagaming. Characters aren't supposed to be wandering about thinking "I'll attack Bert now so that we get a surprise round and we can ready actions"- the whole notion is...well, let's say academic. Sure, it is kind of interesting as a mental exercise, but has no applicability at all to actually playing, in my view.


Also, on this idea:

"I'm against the idea that a surprise round occurs when an encounter begins. Imagine an invisible stalker following a group of PCs down a hallway. Should the Stalker choose to continue following the PCs for another two rounds, I still believe that it would get surprise when it chooses to attack on the 3rd round because the PCs are still "unaware" of the Stalker."

I think that is exactly right. The Stalker DOES get a surprise round when it attacks- it did not loose it earlier just because it became aware of the characters- it gets the round when it initiates combat. NOT when the "encounter" began for it. This example is a good one for how the rules work fine. The real problem with the initial example in the thread was the idea that a surprise round could somehow be banked so that characters opening a door to reveal visible opponents lost their right to an initiative role, which I argue is clearly not what the rules intend. Some of the posts were criticizing the rules, though ,rather than suggesting that that interpretation is wrong, so it is kind of a mixed bag of ideas. All fun, though.